# What was the real problem with "Star Trek Voyager"? Acting or writing? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 5, 2011, 7:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-real-problem-with-star-trek-voyager-acting-or-writing/584380 "2011-06-05T07:44:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-real-problem-with-star-trek-voyager-acting-or-writing/584380/161 "2011-06-18T07:52:19Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > Russ’s character in that episode wasn’t Vulcan. He’s of an indeterminate, but superficially totally human, species. (His name is Devor, which is the only reason I’m not going to come out and say he was human. [But he’s got round ears](http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Devor).) > > (Not an argument against non-pale Vulcans…just nerdy nitpicking - given the planet’s environment the fact that they the majority have such pale skin is kind of weird.) Well, Tuvok was an undercover operative, right? ---
**Author:** ![blindboyard](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blindboyard/32/2833_2.png) [@blindboyard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blindboyard)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2011, 7:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-real-problem-with-star-trek-voyager-acting-or-writing/584380/162 "2011-06-18T07:53:49Z")
> [@Irishman](#): > > So you think Klingon culture is not monolithic, and there’s a separate society on Klingon planets that are pacifists? Well, there were the ones captured by the Romulans who refused to be rescued by Worf. > [@](#): > > That there is a state/colony that thinks that assassination is a lousy way to foster better leaders? That there are Andorreans that aren’t blue? Well, there are the psychic white ones from “Enterprise”. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-real-problem-with-star-trek-voyager-acting-or-writing/584380/163 "2011-06-19T15:39:04Z")
> [@Tengu](#): > > Russ’s character in that episode wasn’t Vulcan. He’s of an indeterminate, but superficially totally human, species. (His name is Devor, which is the only reason I’m not going to come out and say he was human. [But he’s got round ears](http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Devor).) > > (Not an argument against non-pale Vulcans…just nerdy nitpicking - given the planet’s environment the fact that they the majority have such pale skin is kind of weird.) We don’t know that the majority have pale skin. We’ve seen too few of them to form a reasonable impresion. An alien watching _Star Trek_ might think the human species is majority pale-skinned, and that is hardly the case. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [June 19, 2011, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-real-problem-with-star-trek-voyager-acting-or-writing/584380/164 "2011-06-19T15:55:38Z")
Point. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2011, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-real-problem-with-star-trek-voyager-acting-or-writing/584380/165 "2011-06-20T01:00:51Z")
Then, too, we think of “pigmented” as “dark”, but maybe Vulcans have evolved some pigment other than melanin, which is very opaque but still light-colored. That might actually even work better than dark-colored melanin, reflecting sunlight rather than absorbing it. ---
**Author:** ![Magniankh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@Magniankh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magniankh)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-real-problem-with-star-trek-voyager-acting-or-writing/584380/166 "2015-03-05T06:23:43Z")
I, too, agree it was the writing that is to blame in Voyager. I think it’s obvious Voyager was trying to be a little less serious than The Next Generation, with very stereotypical characters that (might) appeal to a broader audience. Tom Paris the sauve lover “flyboy,” B’Elanna Torres (Torres/Toro/Bull), Harry Kim the young cadet that can never find an honest woman, the boring Vulcan, Tuvok… The characters are entirely one-dimensional, even Janeway until the very last episode of the series where her Admiral self has finally bent some rules. Janeway was difficult to respect as a captain, I think her personality type would have better suited a counselor role, like Troi. In the Delta Quandrant she religiously stuck to Starfleet Code, which is perfectly acceptable to use the rules as guidelines, but a more “realistic” show would have compounded the feeling of isolation a little better, I think, such as never having backup, or damage to the ship actually being a factor in later episodes. Chakotay is easily one of the worst characters, he offers absolutely nothing to the cast and basically serves as Janeway’s soliloquy utensil so she can talk to the audience. He has one good episode called “Distant Origin” in Season 3 where he gets some solid dialogue defending an alien scientific theory that they originated on a far away planet millennia ago (Earth), and share common heritage with humans. Beyond that, the show’s quick divergence into his Native American heritage is awful and quickly discarded – he never gains development beyond that, except for the very forced relationship with Seven of Nine. Three of the show’s characters’ stories wrap up with them settling down, starting a family, or somehow becoming domestic – an interesting message given the rest of the show’s tendency to be “toned” down by TNG and DS9 standards. In order for Seven to become more in touch with her humanity she is forced to look after half-borg children even after requesting to not have the assignment. Janeway and Chakotay fight her on it thinking it’s what’s good for her. The highly attractive blonde can only be human with maternal instincts…throughout the show she befriends Naomi Wildman, and then eventually carries on a relationship with Chakotay. Tom Paris cools his jets and marries B’Elanna (and has a child), which helps end her own wild streak. And Neelix leaves behind the entire crew of Voyager to be with a woman and her son, whom he met merely days before. By the end of the show the Doctor has more episodes devoted to him than any other character, and Voyager becomes the Never-Ending-Doctor-Adventure, which granted, Voyager ends up exploring the idea of what constitutes life/rights-to-life via holographic rights. I’m not sure why the writer’s were able to work with the Doctor’s character and really develop something there when that didn’t happen for any of the other characters. In the end I’d wager that Voyager’s demise was in the board room when it was pitched. I think Voyager had it’s journey set from the beginning: a more light-hearted spinoff, more domestic themes (Janeway’s character as the mother-hen, as someone put it), and terrible character creation. The actors weren’t _bad_, but rarely popped off the screen, and I’d say that they felt just as awkward in those scenes as the audience feels watching them. ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-real-problem-with-star-trek-voyager-acting-or-writing/584380/167 "2015-03-05T15:25:28Z")
Thanks for the thread resurrection. Welcome to the world of Trek Doping ---
**Author:** ![AncientHumanoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ancienthumanoid/32/278_2.png) [@AncientHumanoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AncientHumanoid)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-real-problem-with-star-trek-voyager-acting-or-writing/584380/168 "2015-03-05T15:36:33Z")
> [@Peremensoe](#): > > So the original series premise was never followed through. Judged in relation to that, the whole thing is obviously a failure. > > What if we just forget that premise, and accept _Voyager_ as a series of typically standalone Star Trek episodes? Which ones are worth salvaging? Year In Hell was one of my faves. Distant Origins, too. Dinosaurs! On a space ship! Scorpions… ? The fluidic space monsters ep. Hard to search on my PADD… ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-real-problem-with-star-trek-voyager-acting-or-writing/584380/169 "2015-03-05T17:43:53Z")
In addition to my comments when this thread was fresh, _Voyager_ had too many “techno-babble problem, techno-babble solution” episodes, including many of the later stories that were overly-focused on the Doctor and Seven, i.e. “something’s gone wrong with the holomatrix/Borg implants” fixed with a “reconfabulate the carrier wave’s space-time continuum configuration with a tachyon pulse.” And after that episode, the problem and solution are never mentioned again. ---
**Author:** ![DWMarch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dwmarch/32/1010_2.png) [@DWMarch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DWMarch)\ **Post date:** [March 5, 2015, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-real-problem-with-star-trek-voyager-acting-or-writing/584380/170 "2015-03-05T22:06:21Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > The whole concept had a problem as well: Gilligan’s Island Syndrome. The moment they are off the island the show is pretty much over. So as long as they get renewed Gilligan has to keep screwing up the rescue efforts. They could have made a much better show out of going home. Think of The Shield. If you haven’t seen it I won’t spoil it for you. At the end of the very first episode, the main character makes a big decision and that decision follows him and his team for the rest of the series, which was at least seven seasons. If we apply this to Voyager, let’s have Janeway decide to use the Caretaker to get home with the idea that she’s going to leave a bomb behind so the Kazon can’t get their damn dirty hands on it. Voyager heads home having rescued/captured the Maquis and there’s a big celebration/mass trial. Starfleet debriefs Janeway on how she managed to get home without using the Prime Directive as toilet paper. She cheerfully informs them about the tricobalt device she left on a timer and one of the admirals raises an eyebrow and asks her if she actually just said that she took a Starfleet WMD, put it on a timer and left it halfway across the galaxy. We cut back to the Delta Quadrant where we see the Kazon reverse-engineering the bomb so they can use it on the Ocampa. The Ocampa planet gets cracked in half with Kes being the only survivor because she’s in the Alpha Quadrant. Starfleet gets wind of this and there’s our Shield moment: the captain that everyone thought was a hero is actually a pyscho and this brief moment of intervention is going to have consequences for years because of what Janeway did. Tons of conflict in a show like this. Voyager would have been much better off as a series if they came straight home. ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-real-problem-with-star-trek-voyager-acting-or-writing/584380/171 "2015-03-06T15:36:56Z")
The characters were dire beyond belief and this impacted on the writing. Really, who could be inspired to write great scripts for that bunch? Dull as dishwater, the whole crew, I’m surprised the show lasted as long as it did. It proves just how much people were invested in Star Trek - they would rather watch a bad ST series than none at all. And who knew - maybe Picard would step out of the shower one day and it would all turn out to be a bad dream. ---
**Author:** ![Nonsuch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nonsuch/32/2922_2.png) [@Nonsuch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nonsuch)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2015, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-real-problem-with-star-trek-voyager-acting-or-writing/584380/172 "2015-03-06T16:17:39Z")
Can I answer both? I remember when I found out that Rick Berman told the cast members playing humans they had to deliberately underplay their parts — supposedly because it made the alien characters more believable, or some such horseshit — that really clicked. Before that, I didn’t understand why no one making the show noticed how dull everybody was. Answer: they did know it, and were perfectly fine with it. But beyond that, the writing just felt played out. We’d had Next Gen and most of DS9 created by most of the same production team, and by the time it got to Voyager, the Rick Berman “house style” just felt like the same stuff, over and over again. Meaningless technobabble, involving heavy use of the word “reconfigure.” Conference room debates in which the simplest, most direction action was somehow never the correct choice. A captain whom no one could decide whether she was a protective, maternal figure or a shoot-from-the-hip renegade. And so on. It wasn’t all bad. Jeri Ryan may have been great eye candy, but they did make some good stories around her too. But what thin milk it was, spread out over seven years. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-real-problem-with-star-trek-voyager-acting-or-writing/584380/173 "2015-03-07T01:42:12Z")
For all the crap Robert Beltran (Chakotay) takes, the guy played an offensive Native American stereotype for seven years and was at the mercy of egotistical coworkers who made him their whipping boy. And he’s not the only actor on that show who was given truly terrible role and forbidden to break out of it. Garret Wong was also a good actor and both were at times able to do something more interesting. Even in better episodes, their roles often just amounted to standing there and maybe saying a line or two mostly to make another character look good. Except Chakotay also had to spout moronic pseudo-Indian nonsense that apparently appealed to the writing staff, including Kate Mulgrew. And that part has to be understood to see just how appalling the judgment of the writing staff was. The crap they wrote, well, sounds like it was written by none-too-bright Hollywood types who had nothing but a stereotype written up by a conman. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-real-problem-with-star-trek-voyager-acting-or-writing/584380/174 "2015-03-07T02:18:10Z")
> [@Nonsuch](#): > > I remember when I found out that Rick Berman told the cast members playing humans they had to deliberately underplay their parts — supposedly because it made the alien characters more believable, or some such horseshit — that really clicked. Before that, I didn’t understand why no one making the show noticed how dull everybody was. Answer: they did know it, and were perfectly fine with it. Beltran commented on that, about how the writing changed after Braga came on board: > [@](#): > > **You were always honest and open at the time about your displeasure with how Chakotay was utilized on the show. When you raised your concerns, did the powers that be listen?** > > Beltran: No. No. During the Michael Piller-Jeri Taylor years, they listened intently. It was after that… I guess when Brannon Braga took over, when the Seven of Nine character made her entrance, the focus changed. That was fine with me. That was fine with me, but I think writers have an obligation to fill out all the characters if they’re regular characters on a series. I think several of the characters were diminished – Chakotay and Tuvok and Kim and Neelix. I think it was just easier for these new writers that came on to write stories about the captain and about characters that weren’t really human, like Seven of Nine and the Doctor. Those three characters were kind of all-seeing, all-knowing, omnipotent, and I think a lot of the tension and drama that was available was lost because you have to really dig hard to find tension in all-knowing, all-seeing characters. They know everything, right? They have all the answers. Or else you have a redundancy of the same scene written over and over and over again, with slight variations. > > **How did you being so vocal affect you and your work? How did it impact your interactions with your fellow actors and the crew?** > > Beltran: I don’t know what the effect was. I’m just kind of a blunt person and, because I have a brain, I can see problems and so I’m vocal about them. I think a lot of the actors were feeling the same way, but for me it was like, “OK, you can fire me if you want to. Go ahead, and I’ll leave.” That gave me a certain amount of freedom. I was single at the time. I didn’t have to worry about a family like everybody else on the show, except maybe Garrett. I felt like I was telling the truth, and if people can’t take the truth, that’s fine with me, but I’m not going to be stifled by the prospect of being fired. His comment about if the fact that he was bothered by what a racial stereotype his character was was: > [@](#): > > What bothered me most was trying to find the location of that damned flute that was playing every time I had a private moment. I kept waiting for the pow-wow to start and it never did! Yes, annoying! ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-real-problem-with-star-trek-voyager-acting-or-writing/584380/175 "2015-03-07T03:24:55Z")
How was Voyager a failure? It ran for seven years, and for the first several of those years it wasn’t the only Trek series, let alone the only space fantasy show. I didn’t see the first few seasons with the Kazon, but I got into it more later. I wasn’t nuts about Seven and her stupid costume, but Tom and B’ellana were all right. Harry Kim was totally wallpaper at that point, though. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-real-problem-with-star-trek-voyager-acting-or-writing/584380/176 "2015-03-07T04:11:23Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > How was Voyager a failure? It ran for seven years, and for the first several of those years it wasn’t the only Trek series, let alone the only space fantasy show. Because it failed to live up to the standards of the series, and was rather mediocre as a commercial product as well. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-real-problem-with-star-trek-voyager-acting-or-writing/584380/177 "2015-03-07T05:27:33Z")
> [@smiling\_bandit](#): > > Because it failed to live up to the standards of the series, and was rather mediocre as a commercial product as well. “The standards of the series.” This is the canon with “Spock’s Brain,” “The Omega Glory,” and “Skin of Evil”? ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-real-problem-with-star-trek-voyager-acting-or-writing/584380/178 "2015-03-07T17:26:38Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > “The standards of the series.” > > This is the canon with “Spock’s Brain,” “The Omega Glory,” and “Skin of Evil”? Cherry-picking bad episodes isn’t exactly a good argument. However, Yes. Here’s the plain fact: of the three episodes you posted, two are pretty darn memorable and at least _interesting_, even if they aren’t especially good. I would further argue that _Spock’s Brain_ is stupid fun and was at least never bored while watching it, although making me laugh wasn’t the intention. Voyager not only has what are likely the two worst episodes of Star Trek ever made, it’s also simply tedious from start to finish. I’ve been trying to watch this series, and it’s like watching grass grow. The tag-team of Voyager and Enterprise (with the same leadership and the same philosophy behind it) was so bad that it nearly killed the franchise outright, one reason they had to veer wildly into the a series of films. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-real-problem-with-star-trek-voyager-acting-or-writing/584380/179 "2015-03-07T17:59:57Z")
Oh, I like, “Spock’s Brain,” though. And I think ST:V tried to have fun with the concept as well. It’s dumb sci-fi. Maybe that’s all it has to be. ---
**Author:** ![Charlie\_Wayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Charlie\_Wayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Charlie_Wayne)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2015, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-real-problem-with-star-trek-voyager-acting-or-writing/584380/180 "2015-03-07T18:31:05Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > \ > They’re the only Federation ship in an uncharted land, with no means of resupply, no friendly ports, no means to repair or replenish. And yet, on a ship with less than 200 crewmen, they crash a shuttlecraft every other episode, go through photon torpedoes like water, and have enough redshirt casualties to depopulate the ship three times over. > \ Very nicely put! If there were some awards given out annually on this board, IMHO, you would have won one for that one. Son of a gun! Well done! Big fun! I really liked it! Even though I don’t understand what “redshirt casualties” mean. Can you tell me? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-real-problem-with-star-trek-voyager-acting-or-writing/584380.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-the-real-problem-with-star-trek-voyager-acting-or-writing/584380.md?page=10)