# What was Vader's plan for Luke in TESB? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 10, 2011, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-vaders-plan-for-luke-in-tesb/574233 "2011-03-10T22:12:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-vaders-plan-for-luke-in-tesb/574233/61 "2011-03-15T06:28:26Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > So no Sith ever thought that they could achieve more power by having a ton of Sith instead of just 2? Wouldn’t work, in fact it would only make them much weaker. [Conservation of Sithjutsu](http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ConservationOfNinjutsu) and all that. That’s how Vader lost in RotJ, too - when he fought Luke alone he kicked his dustfarmer ass good and proper. When the Emperor is there (not even helping, just in the same room), Vader’s Sith mojo is divided by two, allowing Luke to stomp him. True story. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-vaders-plan-for-luke-in-tesb/574233/62 "2011-03-15T09:30:41Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > That’s fairly advanced long-term planning considering each apprentice doesn’t seem to be able to even hold back on the backstabbing for more than a few decades Two things: 1.) I think the vast majority of apprentices don’t go on to kill their masters. A master might have a dozen apprentices before one finally winds up even making an attempt to kill him. Jedi treat their apprentices like true apprentices, taking an active role in teaching them. With the Sith it’s more like an agreement where the weaker pledges his service in exchange for his presence being tolerated. So I’d say it probably takes longer for the apprentice to learn from his master than it does for the Jedi. And the apprentices aren’t always with their masters, like it is with the Jedi. The Sith are constantly sending their apprentices out on missions. So they don’t get as many opportunities to kill them as you might be thinking. 2.) Don’t let the Rule of Two fool you into thinking that there are really only two guys fighting on the Sith’s side of things. A Sith Lord is going to have, in addition to his apprentice, an army of lackies spread out across the Galaxy, some of those Force-using themselves. All those guys are more or less going to be in the dark as to the true nature of their boss. For all we know those guys are having loyalty hammered into them as the ultimate trait, despite that being antithetical to the entire Sith bag. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-vaders-plan-for-luke-in-tesb/574233/63 "2011-03-15T11:39:22Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Don’t let the Rule of Two fool you into thinking that there are really only two guys fighting on the Sith’s side of things. A Sith Lord is going to have, in addition to his apprentice, an army of lackies spread out across the Galaxy, some of those Force-using themselves. All those guys are more or less going to be in the dark as to the true nature of their boss. For all we know those guys are having loyalty hammered into them as the ultimate trait, despite that being antithetical to the entire Sith bag. _And I shall call them . . . Storm-Troopers!_ ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-vaders-plan-for-luke-in-tesb/574233/64 "2011-03-15T21:30:37Z")
I don’t get what is so special about being a Sith as opposed to any other power-hungry Darkside Force user? Did the Emperor pass on any special knowledge/abilities/power to Vader as Vader killed him? No? Do they normally? Seems like whoever is the current Sith Master isn’t going to share their really good secrets with the apprentice looking to off them. So, I’d expect any special abilities Sith Masters had in the past is long gone, and now it’s really just a case of whoever happens to be the strongest Darkside user takes on a sidekick and viola, the Sith are reborn. The galaxy must be relatively filled with beings within whom the Force is strong, and from there it’s only a matter of time before someone is seduced by the Darkside and grows powerful. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-vaders-plan-for-luke-in-tesb/574233/65 "2011-03-15T22:13:17Z")
Yeah, that’s something that doesn’t make all that much sense. It’s one thing if you call “Sith” anyone who uses the Dark side of the Force, but as a single philosophy, it is a pretty bad plan. It also assumes there aren’t other dark side force people popping up here and there that fly under the Sith master’s radar, and maybe build up their own cult and school of Evil. Said dark group doesn’t hold to “The Rule of Two” because they don’t carry the intellectual heritage, they just are force adepts that don’t go for the Jedi philosophy and instead develop their own talents and team. I suppose under the Republic, the Jedi would deal with that kind of thing, going and either subduing, disbanding, or destroying any groups like that. And I suppose under the Emperor, once he felt that kind of disturbance, that’s what Vader was for - with his stormtroopers, of course, and a Star Destroyer or two. Because hey, he’s Evil, he’s not bound to any code of honor when destroying the enemy. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-vaders-plan-for-luke-in-tesb/574233/66 "2011-03-15T22:55:35Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I don’t get what is so special about being a Sith as opposed to any other power-hungry Darkside Force user? It’s a school of martial training, like you’d see mentioned in a martial arts movie. But I think they’re overplayed in the books and comics because, well, it’s at the point where if you have a villain it’s like, “is he a Sith? No? Get the fuck outta here!” > [@lev](#): > > Did the Emperor pass on any special knowledge/abilities/power to Vader as Vader killed him? No? Do they normally? No, but presumably he’d have taught him some stuff during the thirty or so years he spent as his apprentice. > [@lev](#): > > Seems like whoever is the current Sith Master isn’t going to share their really good secrets with the apprentice looking to off them. They will if they’re following the Rule of Two. It’s helpful to look at the Rule of Two as a subset of the Sith style of Force-fu. It just so happens that it calls for the murder of all other Sith except for one, who must also follow the Rule of Two. The old school Sith were just as paranoid as you’d expect. That’s why they used holocrons to preserve their legacies rather than apprentices in the way that they’re represented in the films. I don’t know why they’d care about their legacies at all but whatever. Anyway, instead of each master having just one apprentice they had academies where they trained bunches of kids, hoping to use them as Force-trained super soldiers. > [@lev](#): > > So, I’d expect any special abilities Sith Masters had in the past is long gone, and now it’s really just a case of whoever happens to be the strongest Darkside user takes on a sidekick and viola, the Sith are reborn. Yes, pretty much. Bane eliminated the Sith through a Force-bomb or a thought-bomb or something. Nihilus can devour life from an entire world using only his mind without the need for a Death Star. So the villains from the movies are left to look like chumps. It’s power bloat. Some guy writing a new story has to do _something_ new to make his villains stand out to readers so he gives them some uber power and eventually you have people pulling Star Destroyers out of the sky. > [@lev](#): > > The galaxy must be relatively filled with beings within whom the Force is strong, and from there it’s only a matter of time before someone is seduced by the Darkside and grows powerful. Yes. The Dark Side can never be eliminated. Balance can never be brought to the Force, despite what’s said in the films. Comics have already explored what happens after the events of ROTJ and we’ve got Han Solo’s great great great great grandkids becoming Sith Lords. If it makes you feel better, I don’t think they follow the Rule of Two. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-vaders-plan-for-luke-in-tesb/574233/67 "2011-03-15T23:29:55Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > I don’t get what is so special about being a Sith as opposed to any other power-hungry Darkside Force user? Simple, Sith Lord sounds like they draw part of their powers from the special teachings of the Siths. In effect, it tends to depict Dark Force users as being something completely separate from Light Force users, like another species, an alien species. Totally goes against how the Force is depicted in the original trilogy. Also it also apparently forces Siths to take munchkins names, like Darth Sidious or Darth Tyrannus. I’m sure there must be a Dart Maxxxor or Darth SuxxorZ somewhere since that door to ludicrousness was battered down. I think it totally shitstains the Dark Side of the Force, since it was always depicted in the OT as a path stronger than the Light Side but leading to nowhere you’d want to be. Of course, by the point you get there, it’s already too late. Sith just destroys the concept of symetry in the Force, its dangerousness, and how easy it is to drift into the Dark Side. > [@levdrakon](#): > > and Viola, the Sith are reborn. Who’s this Viola chick? Another Sith Lord? ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-vaders-plan-for-luke-in-tesb/574233/68 "2011-03-15T23:31:39Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > I think it totally shitstains the Dark Side of the Force, since it was always depicted in the OT as a path stronger than the Light Side but leading to nowhere you’d want to be. No. Quicker. Easier. More seductive. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-vaders-plan-for-luke-in-tesb/574233/69 "2011-03-15T23:36:45Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Who’s this Viola chick? Another Sith Lord? Thanks for pointing that out. I think I’ve been misspelling that for awhile now. Spell checker thinks it’s fine, of course. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-vaders-plan-for-luke-in-tesb/574233/70 "2011-03-16T00:42:05Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes. The Dark Side can never be eliminated. Balance can never be brought to the Force, despite what’s said in the films. On the contrary, Anakin did bring balance to the Force, just as prophesied. The only puzzle is why in the Galaxy did the Jedi ever think that was a good idea? Before Anakin, there were thousands of Jedi and two Sith, unbalanced. After Anakin, there were two Jedi and two Sith, balanced. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-vaders-plan-for-luke-in-tesb/574233/71 "2011-03-16T00:47:46Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > On the contrary, Anakin did bring balance to the Force, just as prophesied. The only puzzle is why in the Galaxy did the Jedi ever think that was a good idea? Before Anakin, there were thousands of Jedi and two Sith, unbalanced. After Anakin, there were two Jedi and two Sith, balanced. People get this wrong all the time. The Light Side and the Dark Side are not equal and opposite forces. The Light Side is all about balance and the Dark Side is about the opposite. If you have something that’s already balanced and add something unbalancing you’re left with something that isn’t in balance. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-vaders-plan-for-luke-in-tesb/574233/72 "2011-03-16T01:43:36Z")
So the Sith seek imbalance by perfectly balancing Master and Apprentice? Sense, this does not make. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-vaders-plan-for-luke-in-tesb/574233/73 "2011-03-16T09:55:53Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > So the Sith seek imbalance by perfectly balancing Master and Apprentice? What does that mean? > [@Wookieepedia on the Prophecy of the Chosen One](#): > > The prophecy of the Chosen One was an ancient Jedi legend that foretold the coming of a being who would restore balance to the Force. > > The idea of balance of the Force, a central tenet of the Jedi Order, refers to the ideal state in which the Force exists in nature, i.e. as the light side. The presence of the dark side corrupts and destroys this natural balance, and the Jedi viewed it as their duty to restore it. > [@Wookieepedia on The Force](#): > > Traditional Jedi were keen to keep the Force “in balance”. They attempted to achieve this by destroying the Sith and denying the dark side—essentially “keeping balance” by restoring the Force to its natural state, as they viewed the dark side as “corruption”. > > … > > Passion was considered dangerous, as it could lead to strong emotions that could unbalance the Jedi and lead them to the Dark Side. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-vaders-plan-for-luke-in-tesb/574233/74 "2011-03-16T10:52:01Z")
> [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > The Light Side and the Dark Side are not equal and opposite forces. Well of course not. They are equal and opposite parasites that live in your bloodstream. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-vaders-plan-for-luke-in-tesb/574233/75 "2011-03-16T12:14:14Z")
> [@Autolycus](#): > > Well of course not. They are equal and opposite parasites that live in your bloodstream. Shut up, you! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-vaders-plan-for-luke-in-tesb/574233/76 "2011-03-16T12:36:27Z")
> [@Autolycus](#): > > Well of course not. They are equal and opposite parasites that live in your bloodstream. The existence of Dark Side Matter is just a theory that hasn’t been proven by science. ---
**Author:** ![Scuba\_Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Scuba\_Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scuba_Ben)\ **Post date:** [March 16, 2011, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-vaders-plan-for-luke-in-tesb/574233/77 "2011-03-16T13:54:46Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Who’s this Viola chick? Another Sith Lord? [No, but she passes as one so she can hold down a day job.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viola_%28Twelfth_Night_character%29) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-was-vaders-plan-for-luke-in-tesb/574233.md?page=3)