# What we should do about ISIS... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 29, 2015, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-we-should-do-about-isis/741682 "2015-12-29T22:02:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-we-should-do-about-isis/741682/21 "2015-12-30T15:04:07Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > The Arab world hates the West because they lost the competition of civilizations and they know it. The West has surpassed the Middle East in economic, political, and social terms. Rather than admit their inferiority and accept the humiliation that comes with it, they react with rage and violence and cling to their religion (which is the only thing that unites them as a shared culture and the only thing that the West cannot claim supremacy over). > > By way of comparison, the Far East was likewise subjugated and out-competed. These same Eastern countries chose to reorient their societies and adapt so that they could be competitive in the modern world. The Middle East could have made the same choice, but they did not. > > Also, it doesn’t follow that airstrikes and wars automatically promote hatred and violence. We invaded Japan and dropped atomic fucking weapons on them, twice, and yet I don’t see any Japanese suicide bombers. They realized their government was evil, swore off war as an instrument of policy, and adapted so that they could be successful and competitive in the new world. 50 years later, they’re only just now starting to question pacifism as a national policy. The Middle Eastern countries could have made the same choice, but they didn’t. This is an excellent post. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-we-should-do-about-isis/741682/22 "2015-12-30T15:06:59Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Ugh. I’m opposed to most of the drone attacks, but I’m also opposed to bullshit. You’re right. Apparently the ratio is much higher than 10:1. > **[41 men targeted but 1,147 people killed: US drone strikes – the facts on the...](https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/24/-sp-us-drone-strikes-kill-1147)** > > New analysis of data conducted by human rights group Reprieve shared with the Guardian, raises questions about accuracy of intelligence guiding ‘precise’ strikes "Finally, on 15 October 2010, Hellfire missiles fired from a Predator or Reaper drone killed Hussain, the Pakistani Taliban later confirmed. For the death of a man whom practically no American can name, the US killed 128 people, 13 of them children, none of whom it meant to harm. " ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-we-should-do-about-isis/741682/23 "2015-12-30T15:17:06Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > Absolutely correct. I am so sick of people blaming Bush for everything that went wrong. These people assume that the Iraqis couldn’t make their own decisions, as if America FORCED them to start killing each other in their sectarian civil war. Saddam was one of the cruelest, most violent dictators of all time and he spent decades keeping them in line through a campaign of mass murder. America gave them the freedom to choose their own destiny and they CHOSE to fight each other. > > I’ll never understand how America’s invasion prompted their violence, and yet they put so much energy into killing each other. It doesn’t follow that they have a grievance with America and yet express their outrage by killing their own people. Clearly their primary motivation is greed and lust for power rather than a desire for revenge. Well making some changes to your OP I think that you are ignoring that Bush never stopped to consider that Saddam was not our problem. Just as the Syrian Civil War is not our problem. Bush made it our problem. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-we-should-do-about-isis/741682/24 "2015-12-30T15:18:12Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > I love to mock people who make this argument…because of the blatant racism it exposes. > If you want to blame Bush for creating failed governments in the middle east… at least have the intellectual honesty to say “because we all know that the brown people aren’t fit to govern themselves.They can only create failed states like Somalia.” > > Bush eliminated a cruel dictator, and allowed the people of Iraq to vote freely. On election day, reporters from the western press swarmed around the polling booths, full of exciting,positive reactions, showing pictures of voters smiling, proudly holding their ink-stained fingers up to the cameras. > What happened next, of course, was a disaster. The people chose to give up on democracy and return to their traditional tribal mindset, killing anyone who is not of their ethnic group. > > Western liberals who blame Bush are right, of course…if he had left the tyrant in power, Saddam would have kept the brown people crushed, and we westerners wouldn’t have to worry about those natives getting restless. > **But the disaster was made by the Iraqi people, not by Bush.** > And Bush-bashers who love to blame western white men for all the world’s problems should recognize their logicatl implication: that middle-eastern brown men are incapable of solving their own problems. This is utter self serving bullshit. First, it ignores the fact that we weren’t really interested in installing a democracy, we were interested in installing a puppet regime with the trappings of a democracy. Second, it ignores the fact that America has no legitimacy as a democratizing force in the Middle East and that we undermined the democratizing elements withing the Middle East. Once the US invaded, proponents of democracy were suddenly seen as mouth pieces of US imperialism. It’s idiots like you and **Chihuahua** who have no understanding of the outside world, but are so fucking sure or yourselves and what needs doing (that is, what brown people need killing) and then when we point out that you fucking idiots fucked up you get all “I’m tired of talking about the past.” Well guess what, I’m tired of dumb asses like you spouting your idiocy like you know something. Just once, I’d like one of you self assured pieces of shit to say, “actually, I’m always wrong on this type of thing, I’m going to sit this one out.” Why do I care so much? Because I was in Iraq for two and half fucking years trying to clean up your fuckers’ messes and I know a shit ton of people who got killed because of assholes like you. We broke the Middle East, we won’t recover from the blunder, but I will not let you fuckers re-write history. You idiots act like ISIS just kind of happened because Arabs are jealous of us, or whatever racist bullshit **Chihuahua** tells himself so he can sleep at night. As I said in this thread in 2006: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=406921&highlight=Iraq+Turkey](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=406921&highlight=Iraq+Turkey) > [@](#): > > I believe that the United States has lost the war in Iraq and that in so doing, has begun the long decline of the US in the world. I think there might be a chance to stabilize Iraq, but it would require more than 50k additional troops, a ten year commitment and thousands upon thousands of casaulties. > > Troops would have to get out of their armored humvees and patrol the streets on foot, many many of them would die. The Green Zone would have to be broken up and contractors forced to live out in Baghdad. Many of them would be killed. > > I think in order to win, the US would have to get accustomed to seeing an American beheaded every other day on cable news. It would have to become so commonplace that it wouldn’t even warrant comment. > > Of course the will for that kind of fight isn’t there, so we can’t win. Iraq has become Somalia on the Tigris thanks to Bush’s invasion which is exactly what bin Laden wanted. We have created a failed Arab state that radical fundamentalists will use as a base. We will have to return again and again. We have destabilized the region, we will draw Turkey, Iran, Syria, and Saudi Arabia into the conflict. I’d call that a loss. > > I’m a rarity, someone who was opposed to the invasion, who now would support an escalation. I don’t support the 20k increase Bush is talking about, but a large-scale commitment of troops. I feel we have a moral obligation to fix what we so carelessly destroyed, but I know we won’t. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-we-should-do-about-isis/741682/25 "2015-12-30T15:20:12Z")
> [@Gary\_Kumquat](#): > > You’re right. Apparently the ratio is much higher than 10:1. > > [41 men targeted but 1,147 people killed: US drone strikes – the facts on the ground | Obama administration | The Guardian](http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/nov/24/-sp-us-drone-strikes-kill-1147) > > "Finally, on 15 October 2010, Hellfire missiles fired from a Predator or Reaper drone killed Hussain, the Pakistani Taliban later confirmed. For the death of a man whom practically no American can name, the US killed 128 people, 13 of them children, none of whom it meant to harm. " Cherry picked data by an advocacy group with no details as to how the data was collected and verified. Sorry, not buying it. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Kumquat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4491bb/32.png) [@Gary\_Kumquat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Kumquat)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-we-should-do-about-isis/741682/26 "2015-12-30T15:30:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Cherry picked data by an advocacy group with no details as to how the data was collected and verified. Sorry, not buying it. Argument from incredulity. How cute. If you’ve got a cite you think is more accurate, feel free to post it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-we-should-do-about-isis/741682/27 "2015-12-30T15:32:02Z")
> [@botsgotme](#): > > The solution to ISIS is very simple: stop the flow of smuggled oil to Turkey-tell Erdogan that unless this stops (immediately, Turkey gets booted from NATO-and the USA will sponsor a Kurdish state. next, stop all money transfers (via Lebanese and Swiss banks) to ISIS. Finally,tell the Saudis to stop all funding of the Sunnis in iraq. When anyone says there’s a simple solution to anything in the Middle East, run. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-we-should-do-about-isis/741682/28 "2015-12-30T15:36:34Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > I love to mock people who make this argument…because of the blatant racism it exposes. > If you want to blame Bush for creating failed governments in the middle east… at least have the intellectual honesty to say “because we all know that the brown people aren’t fit to govern themselves.They can only create failed states like Somalia.” > > Bush eliminated a cruel dictator, and allowed the people of Iraq to vote freely. On election day, reporters from the western press swarmed around the polling booths, full of exciting,positive reactions, showing pictures of voters smiling, proudly holding their ink-stained fingers up to the cameras. > What happened next, of course, was a disaster. The people chose to give up on democracy and return to their traditional tribal mindset, killing anyone who is not of their ethnic group. > > Western liberals who blame Bush are right, of course…if he had left the tyrant in power, Saddam would have kept the brown people crushed, and we westerners wouldn’t have to worry about those natives getting restless. > **But the disaster was made by the Iraqi people, not by Bush.** > And Bush-bashers who love to blame western white men for all the world’s problems should recognize their logical implication: that middle-eastern brown men are incapable of solving their own problems. I can not take seriously people that make arguments like this one by ignoring that removing a dictator was not the only thing that was done, in reality the disbanding of the army in Iraq (A decision made by the Bush administration) and the murder of many in the opposition to the new more Shiite government caused many of the Sunis to look for options outside democracy. That I do think that the ones that made that choice deserve fire from above does not take away the realization that we could had avoided this by not intervening in the first place. What I see is that now as ISIS is being beaten back many Shiite militias are finishing the cleansing of Sunis in Iraq. [QUOTE] The rise of ISIS, explained in 6 minutes (by VOX) … In the few short years since the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria formed, it has done the seemingly impossible, seizing vast areas of the Middle East to form a mini-state it calls a reincarnation of the ancient Caliphate. It is at war with all its neighbors and virtually the entire world, yet someone remains, and is launching increasingly deadly terror attacks abroad. To understand how this terrible group came about and how it has grown so powerful, you need to understand the story behind its rise. And that is a story that goes back decades, to long before ISIS existed [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-we-should-do-about-isis/741682/29 "2015-12-30T15:47:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > When anyone says there’s a simple solution to anything in the Middle East, run. Not everyone got passing grades in history, give them a break. ---
**Author:** ![Torontonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/45deac/32.png) [@Torontonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Torontonian)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-we-should-do-about-isis/741682/30 "2015-12-30T16:45:43Z")
Should we get our own terrorists to go after ISIS? ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-we-should-do-about-isis/741682/31 "2015-12-30T16:50:54Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Thank you! Someone talking sense from your neck of the woods for once! Now maybe you guys can stop making things worse with every giant step you take. :mad: Hey smelly, us peons aren’t making the decisions. Why don’t you stop being a Nazi and Nazi-ing up the world.\* \*If you’re not living in Germany anymore lemme know so I can insult you retardly properly. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-we-should-do-about-isis/741682/32 "2015-12-30T17:26:40Z")
> [@Chihuahua](#): > > …and I’ve had friends assaulted just because they wore their uniforms in public… Bullshit. Worse: old, recycled bullshit from another miserable military adventure. How do I know? Because it would have been reported, and having been reported, Fox Gnaws would be all over it, trumpeting it, yelling their heads off about it. This is a common occurrence? Then how is it you can’t cite it? Did the all powerful liberal media crush all such reports? Leaving only you to advise us of this dreadful truth? What, you can’t advance your position without making shit up? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-we-should-do-about-isis/741682/33 "2015-12-30T18:31:37Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Bullshit. Worse: old, recycled bullshit from another miserable military adventure. How do I know? Because it would have been reported, and having been reported, Fox Gnaws would be all over it, trumpeting it, yelling their heads off about it. > > This is a common occurrence? Then how is it you can’t cite it? Did the all powerful liberal media crush all such reports? Leaving only you to advise us of this dreadful truth? What, you can’t advance your position without making shit up? I hang out with lots of liberals, and I’ve never been criticized or attacked for being a veteran. Quite the opposite, in fact - even though I’ve been out for several years, I still get lots of “thank you for your service”. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-we-should-do-about-isis/741682/34 "2015-12-30T18:36:13Z")
Yeah, I can just see it. A bunch of pacifist spindly entitled vegan America-hating Social Justice Warriors see his buddy walking around in uniform, and get so angry they decide they’re gonna kick his ass. Didn’t happen. You know how I know it didn’t happen? Because it’s ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-we-should-do-about-isis/741682/35 "2015-12-30T18:46:33Z")
Well, let’s see. Half my age, maybe a third. Combat trained, I got _tai-chi_. When the cops get there, I get my ass kicked _again_ on the way to the hospital, or jail. Lastly, next time I shave, I look in the mirror and think “Well, I had it coming.” Yeah, that’s a plan. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-we-should-do-about-isis/741682/36 "2015-12-30T19:33:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Cherry picked data by an advocacy group with no details as to how the data was collected and verified. Sorry, not buying it. Enjoy your ignorance, relish in your inability to deal with the truth. [http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/former-drone-pilots-denounce-morally-outrageous-program-n472496](http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/former-drone-pilots-denounce-morally-outrageous-program-n472496) ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-we-should-do-about-isis/741682/37 "2015-12-30T19:38:23Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Enjoy your ignorance, relish in your inability to deal with the truth. > > [http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/former-drone-pilots-denounce-morally-outrageous-program-n472496](http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/former-drone-pilots-denounce-morally-outrageous-program-n472496) \*Combined, drone strikes on Pakistan, Somalia and Yemen have killed 2,736 to 4,169 militants, according to the New America Foundation. Meanwhile, those strikes have also killed hundreds of civilians. Estimates range from 488 to 1,071, according to the Bureau of Investigative Journalism.\* **John Mace** was responding to a claim that drone strikes kill 10 civilians ( or more ) per militant. The above cite does not contradict his skepticism. I’m not in favor of the tactic myself as a general proposition. But hundreds of civilians dead is bad enough without exaggerating the scope of the tragedy. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-we-should-do-about-isis/741682/38 "2015-12-30T19:43:27Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > \*Combined, drone strikes on Pakistan, Somalia and Yemen have killed 2,736 to 4,169 militants, according to the New America Foundation. > > Meanwhile, those strikes have also killed hundreds of civilians. Estimates range from 488 to 1,071, according to the Bureau of Investigative Journalism.\* > > **John Mace** was responding to a claim that drone strikes kill 10 civilians ( or more ) per militant. The above cite does not contradict his skepticism. I’m not in favor of the tactic myself as a general proposition. But hundreds of civilians dead is bad enough without exaggerating the scope of the tragedy. Watch the video, those numbers included “fun sized terrorists” A.K.A. Kids, as “militants”. The 10:1 is also more related to Obama’s use which is more and more commonly assassinations of potential militants outside of conflict zones. The numbers above are old and mostly discredited due to newer leaked documents. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-we-should-do-about-isis/741682/39 "2015-12-30T19:54:26Z")
A: Please don’t come into my house and take a shit on my couch! _:comes in the house and shits on couch:_ A: Maybe you know, clean up all this shit on my couch? B: Oh, now you want me to come in your house? Bitch. A: And can you stop taking a shit everywhere? B: Bitch. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-we-should-do-about-isis/741682/40 "2015-12-30T20:01:25Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > \*Combined, drone strikes on Pakistan, Somalia and Yemen have killed 2,736 to 4,169 militants, according to the New America Foundation. > > Meanwhile, those strikes have also killed hundreds of civilians. Estimates range from 488 to 1,071, according to the Bureau of Investigative Journalism.\* > > **John Mace** was responding to a claim that drone strikes kill 10 civilians ( or more ) per militant. The above cite does not contradict his skepticism. I’m not in favor of the tactic myself as a general proposition. But hundreds of civilians dead is bad enough without exaggerating the scope of the tragedy. FYI, as an example on how utterly bullshit the official “militant” claims are. If you live in the same town as someone who has actually served time and been released, we will still kill you, your neighbors and their children and not give two shits about it. [https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2012/03/29/the-civilian-massacre-the-us-will-neither-confirm-nor-deny/](https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2012/03/29/the-civilian-massacre-the-us-will-neither-confirm-nor-deny/) The worst part is that americans look the other way, because the lives are of foreign brown people. We bailed too early from iraq due to our casualties which do not even amount to the loses in most battles in ww2 for the entire Iraq war. As Americans we do NOT have any high ground in this mess, from the point of invasion to today we, as a country, have been doing evil. We like to pretend that we value life in general, but we only value our own which is no different than ISIS etc… We pretend that the unjust killing of western people on TV is so evil yet we do worse. In some ways ISIS is being more honest in at least they are showing the public the ugliness of their evilness vs hiding it from view like the US government. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-we-should-do-about-isis/741682.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-we-should-do-about-isis/741682.md?page=3)