# What (Welsh?) letter is this that appears in this YouTube video? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 2, 2023, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-welsh-letter-is-this-that-appears-in-this-youtube-video/977494 "2023-01-02T01:45:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-welsh-letter-is-this-that-appears-in-this-youtube-video/977494/1 "2023-01-02T01:45:35Z")
So, I know that Old and Middle English had several letters that we no longer use–æsc/ash (_Ææ_), ðæt/eð/edh/eth (_Ðð_) þorn/thorn (_Þþ_), ȝogh/yogh (_Ȝȝ_), œthel/ethel (_Œœ_) and ƿynn/wynn (_Ƿƿ_). But I just came across a YouTube video that shows a new letter regarding documentation of a Welsh region whose historicity has not been confirmed. The letter first appears on screen at (0:40): [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Ij2bov4UPME/maxresdefault.jpg "The Mysterious Story of a Missing Medieval Kingdom") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij2bov4UPME) In other spellings, the letter seems to be replaced by _U_ or _W_, but the narrator doesn’t explain the appearance of this letter. Anyone know anything about this? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-welsh-letter-is-this-that-appears-in-this-youtube-video/977494/2 "2023-01-02T01:58:49Z")
At a guess, I’d say it’s a scribal abbreviation. That shows up in a lot of hand1written manuscripts, even down to the 17th century. Since it seems to be filling in for a u or w (w can be a vowel in Welsh), it may just be a quick loop to finish the word, that the reader can easily fill in as they read the page. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-welsh-letter-is-this-that-appears-in-this-youtube-video/977494/3 "2023-01-02T02:00:50Z")
Paging @Dr.Drake ! ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-welsh-letter-is-this-that-appears-in-this-youtube-video/977494/4 "2023-01-02T02:01:37Z")
Looks like a (Middle Welsh) “v” to me: > **[Ỽ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E1%BB%BC)** > > Ỽ, ỽ (Middle Welsh V) is a letter employed in Middle Welsh texts between the 13th and 14th centuries. It represented the sounds of v, u, and w and – prior to inclusion in the Latin Extended Additional block of Unicode characters – was typically represented by the letter w in transcriptions. The Unicode code point for the capital letter is U+1EFC; that for the lower-case letter is U+1EFD. > It is related to the Anglo-Saxon letter wynn, Ƿ. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > At a guess, I’d say it’s a scribal abbreviation. That shows up in a lot of hand1written manuscripts, even down to the 17th century. > > Since it seems to be filling in for a u or w (w can be a vowel in Welsh), it may just be a quick loop to finish the word, that the reader can easily fill in as they read the page. I confess I am not familiar with Middle Welsh manuscripts, but it does not seem to be in terminal position or to abbreviate anything. Not sure what the difference is between a “normal” “v” and an alternate “v” [ETA Wikipedia says the letter is related to the Anglo-Saxon wynn, so basically a double u (and u = v)] ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-welsh-letter-is-this-that-appears-in-this-youtube-video/977494/5 "2023-01-02T02:04:09Z")
If it’s just a scribal abbreviation, it’s strange to me that the video would use it without explanation. Like if he had used the [Tironian _et_](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tironian_notes) (_⁊_), I would have expected some explanation. Otherwise, most people would be wondering why there is a number _7_ in that text. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-welsh-letter-is-this-that-appears-in-this-youtube-video/977494/6 "2023-01-02T02:06:08Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Looks like a (Middle Welsh) “v” to me: Ah, perfect. Thank you! I had never encountered this. Odd that the article on [Welsh orthography](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_orthography) doesn’t mention it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-welsh-letter-is-this-that-appears-in-this-youtube-video/977494/7 "2023-01-02T04:05:36Z")
If you mean the Wikipedia article on Welsh Orthography, it does. And if points to the article on Ỽ too. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-welsh-letter-is-this-that-appears-in-this-youtube-video/977494/8 "2023-01-02T05:10:32Z")
It’s not a V, really, in that it never goes /v/. It’s basically a W. They’re all members of the U-V-W family, though. We call it “wynn” but obviously it’s not the same. In Modern Welsh, the same letter is W. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-welsh-letter-is-this-that-appears-in-this-youtube-video/977494/9 "2023-01-02T05:44:47Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > If you mean the Wikipedia article on Welsh Orthography, it does. And if points to the article on Ỽ too. It does now. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-welsh-letter-is-this-that-appears-in-this-youtube-video/977494/10 "2023-01-02T05:45:53Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > We call it “wynn” but obviously it’s not the same. That means you are Welsh? Does it have any current use in Wales or in Welsh? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2023, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-welsh-letter-is-this-that-appears-in-this-youtube-video/977494/11 "2023-01-02T17:51:27Z")
I’m not Welsh, but a scholar of things Welsh: those whom I’ve heard discuss the character in a professional context (which was along the lines of “we need to create a wynn for the font we’re using for the book”). This was before it has a place in Unicode (thanks, MUFI [Medieval Unicode Font Initiative]). MUFI, who is a bit more rigorous in this regard, also calls it a V: [Medieval Unicode Font Initiative](https://mufi.info/m.php?p=mufichars&i=1&v=V) (1EFC and 1EFD). As far as I know, it is not currently in use in Wales. 1EFA ([Medieval Unicode Font Initiative](https://mufi.info/m.php?p=mufichars&i=1&v=L)) is, though: [Smörgåsbord](https://www.smorgasbordstudio.com/work/cymruwalestypeface/) . Only in graphic design contexts; the siren call of the ordinary keyboard is just too great for unique alphabetical characters.