What went wrong in Arab culture?

I too blame the continued persistance of empire - Ottoman and Mamluk - for the relative decline.

Not because they were empires per se, but because they were empires dominated by horse-nomad elites ruling over a much higher (in terms of intellectual progress) set of cultures.

These elites tended to view intellectual change, and indeed change itself, as a threat - the fear being that the ruled, if allowed intellectual or other forms of freedom, may eventually send the rulers packing back to the steppe from whence they came.

Naturally, the Ottomans (for example) developed beyond their horse nomad beginnings … but the conservatism remained. For example, the development of the Jannisarries as an elite fighting force simply replaced the conservatism of horse nomads with the conservatism of the institution of Jannisarry-dom at the centre of Ottoman power.

Europe, by contrast, never suffered a universal empire ruled by a conservative elite. I imagine that if (improbably) the Hapsburgs had succeeded in their bid for European empire, Christian Hapsburg Europe and the Islamic Ottoman middle east would have been approximately equal in intellectual development.

In other words, I think it has little to do with anything inherent in the religions or cultures involved -which, in either place, could have (and has) justified anti-intellectualism.

I think the parallel with China is right on the mark. A rich, strong empire becomes inward looking and concerned more with the preservation of the status quo than in pushing forward.

The Pan-Arabism/Marxism and oil dependent economies (mentioned by other posters) were traps fallen into in recent times.

I’d also to say that it was the West’s embrace of capitalims as the economic model of the 18th and 19th centuries that catipulted those economies beyond that of the Asian (not just the Muslim) world. In that sense, it wasn’t that the Asian world sank, but that the Western world rose faster.

Science/Democracy/Capitalism. That’s a hard combo to beat in a power struggle.

I posted this thought once before but I’ll say it again. It’s not fundamentalism that is completely to blame, it is the inability to question the prevailing belief system. There is no hierarchy to address directily so it is more difficult for a Martin Luther to come along and shake things up. With a flat hierarchy, there are more avenues for mini “kingdoms” of religion. Each kingdom carrying with it a belief system that is unquestioned. Blasphemy is dealt with harshly on the local level.

Interestingly, Shaikh Sultan, leader of Sharjah emerite of the UAE, sees it similarly to Magiver. He is devoted to reinvigorating intellectualism both in his emerite and across Arab lands, but sees “intellectual tribalism” as an obstacle. He has spent many millions trying to build scientific cooperation across the Gulf. He sees the building of public educational institutions at all levels as essential. As quoted in the December 5 Science

Now then, that brings up the second part: How can the reconciliation between intellectualism and Arab culture be fostered?

This is in the West’s best interest and is in keeping with a long Arab tradition that has just laid fallow. With education comes integration into the secular world and appreciation for secular values even while continuing to embrace your religious world as well; comes the realization that they are not mutually exclusive (despite France’s POV …) The way I see it, whether or not fundamentalist extremism caused the whithering of past Arab scientific greatness, native intellectualism as a resurgent prized Arab value is the only long term cure for the fundamentalist extremism that has infected parts of the Arab world and threatens us all.

It is in the Arab region’s best interest because oil will last only so long. Scientific literacy and intellectual agility will be needed for the region to continue to prosper economically as the oil economy one day fades.

How should it be accomplished?

The problem is that some Arab people think the Word died with Muhammad, and history stopped as well, notwithstanding the amazing advances in mathematics, engineering and especially archiving, the archiving which ultimately saved the entire Western civilization from total obsurity.

Qouted by DSeid:**
It is in the Arab region’s best interest because oil will last only so long. Scientific literacy and intellectual agility will be needed for the region to continue to prosper economically as the oil economy one day fades.

How should it be accomplished?**

I agree with your view of the problem. Back in the 70’s, when OPEC was formed I, I projected events forward and saw a balloon that would someday bust. There is only 1 form of legal income in the region and it will disappear eventually with nothing to replace it.

I’ve actually given this a tremendous amount of thought over the years and there are processes (event nodes) that can make a real difference. Shaikh Sultan is repeating what Ross Perot said in his 3rd party run for the Presidency. The 3 most important things in this country are education, education, education. A populace that can think for itself is the foundation for self sufficiency.

Self-sufficiency is necessary before ANY advancements can be made. I define advancements as cultural (the arts), and technological (cars and can openers). Once educational needs are met there must be a mechanism to utilize the knowledge.

India has a highly educated populace (above that of the United States) but they lack the structure to allow for individual success. It takes mountains of paperwork to start a business. A process that taxes the soul and is rewarded by a tax of the wallet.

I’ve seen more than 1 Palestinian interviewed who basically said they were all dressed up with no place to go (their education didn’t improve their situation). It is a process that is repeated, over and over again in 3rd world countries.

A job market needs to exist so it is absolutely necessary that today’s oil sales be converted into a manufacturing base (includes farming). What I was taught in business school is that a business must define itself in the broader terms to survive. The classic example of the milk bottle company becoming the “container” company. Milk bottles may become obsolete but containers won’t. The Mid East could become the energy capital of the world by investing their educational and financial capital into high tech energy generators.

JM2C.

[frustrated aside]

Dear lord, and doesn’t it drive you crazy? There is so much potential in the world that is being bottled up by petty politics!

[/aside]

Small nitpick, Tom, I would’nt exactly call it “ruin”, decline maybe, but the invading Germans seem to have taken up Roman culture and learning with enough zest to make Latin the language of the learned right up to the present. The Germanic emperors also considered themselves both holy and Roman. Call me Kaiser, but my WAAO(wild ass armchair opinion) is that the western empire never really fell, exactly, but was merely co-opted and moved north, and scholarly activity simply became more centralized (or maybe not, it was most likely during both periods a pursuit of the elite) and less secular.

Hijack over, my apologies. As far as the OP, yeah I’d go with mismanagement of empire by the Ottomans. The Crusades? I don’t know, nice try, but nah…more like alot of showy jockeying for power back in Europe( before someone says it, no not all, I’m sure there were many true believers) without much real consequence to any major centers of the Arab world. The Ottomans did after all reach well into the Balkans and even eastern Europe by the fourteenth century.

For a good description and explanation on why Europe advanced read Paul Kennedy’s book: The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers.

Commerce mixed with a geography that never allowed anyone group to dominate the whole continent kept competition and rivalry. That spurred advances and technology… etc… etc…

I can’t really address the “Arab Culture” question as I personally find many aspects of it admirable. Education, at least in Saudi, does seem to have become side-tracked a bit. Two unis, KSU in Riyadh and KFUPM in Dhahran are areas I am familiar with. Both of these unis have beautiful buildings and modern equipment but still turn out students that would be unemployable in most of the West.
Some of the problem is in the area of motivating and disciplining the students. If a student is related to someone moderately powerful (the royal family wouldn’t dream of studying here) then an instructor is taking his career in his hands if he flunks the guy.
The other area is religion. Unfortunately, religion plays a large role in education. Students are quite pleased by receiving high grades in “Islamic Studies” and “Islamic Jurisprudence.” While such courses may be interesting, they have little utility in modern business.
Many instructors (very privately) deplore the influence of religion on education but there is little they can do about it. Coming out in favor of removing the religious influence in any area is easily perceived as being against the religion, a certain career killer in the magic Kingdom.

Regards

Testy

Minor nitpick - the second siege of Vienna was in 1683, not '81.

Well…Let’s tackle a couple of things.

The Islamic ‘Golden Age’ is considered to have ended somewhere in the 10th-11th centuries, depending on how you want to look at/define it ( and it is probably best to look at it as a continuum, with numerous declines, but no definitive date for a break ). Basically it saw the collapse of a dominant central authority and the fracturing of the Pax Islamica ( i.e. contraction of Islamic rule and penetration by outside invasion ). The Crusades were only one small piece of this phenomena. Internally the central authority of the Caliphate lapsed. This was occasioned/accompanied by serious economic decline resulting from millenia of over-irrigation ( rising water tables causing salinized soils ) and desertification in Mesopotamia ( massive decline in the revenues that had been the economic engine of every major state from ancient Babylon right through the earlier Caliphate ) together with damage from the fourth fitna ( Islamic civil war ) and loss of outlying revenue as increasingly autonomous dynasties broke away on the periphery and ceased to remit much, if any, tax revenue. The later Abbasid dynasty was also unable to recover traction due to increasing praetorianization from the 9th century, as the private imported armies of elite Turkic horse-archers based in Samarra began dabbling in Caliphal succession. By the mid-10th century the Abbasid Caliphate was politically irrelevant.

The eruption of the nomadic Seljuq confederacy into the Near East in the 11th century, though it “saved” orthodox Sunnism from both the Shi’a keepers of the Abbasids ( the Buyid dynasty ) and encroaching enemies ( the Isma’ili Shi’a Fatimids most prominently ) and temporarily re-united a large chunk of Caliphal territory into a briefly powerful state, in the end just compounded the problem. Both the Seljuq eruption and the later Mongol eruption caused major demographic shifts and massively increased increased semi-nomadic pastoralism at the expense of agricultural production. Henceforth the military system in the region, at least until the later Ottoman period ( and in some areas, like Persia, into the early 20th century at least in part ), would be dominated by the levies raised from the mostly Turkic pastoralists, creating a constant tension for states between the need to accomodate both military resources and efficient revenue-producing regions ( urban and agricultural areas ). Revenue often lost out. Further the Seljuqs also entrenched the iqta system of tax-farming ( so-called “Islamic feudalism”, though the analogy is not exact ). Like feudalism/manoralism in Europe it was a good temporary solution to the problem of governance in the face declining revenue and central control, but in the end it only accelerated those trends. The 13th century Mongol invasion, in addition to accelerating the trend towards pastoralism probably also permanently damaged eastern Persia, destroying fragile and difficult to replace underground irrigation works ( which they were indifferent to replacing ). It is also worth noting that the Near East has been getting progressively drier for millenia, which didn’t help.

As noted this chaos ( including the impact of the Crusades, but hardly confined to them ) produced reactionary backlashes, as thinkers reacted to the visible decline by denouncing a presumed moral laxity. This was most marked in Iberia and North Africa as the extremely intolerant Berber-centered religious movements of the al-Mourabitun ( Almoravids ) and al-Muwahiddun ( Almohades ) replaced the semi-enlightened successor dynasties to the Umayyads.

All of the above contributed to a marked intellectual decline. Less revenue = less patronage. Praetorianized regimes are generally intellectually conservative regimes. Nomad-based military dynasties are less interested in intellectual achievement that urban, settled dynasties. Reactionary thinkers are often concerned only with very narrow definitions of education. Cultures that develop siege mentalities ( and have at the time a well-founded superiority complex ) are less open to stimulating outside influences.

Not that Islamic culture and intellectual thought came to a shrieking halt. Cultural efflorescenses can be seen all over the place as time progressed. But the same tensions were always in place - a vigorous state might re-establish central control over a wide area, pulling in substantial excess revenue and re-building crucial economic resources. But they were still often dependant on tax-farms and pastoral tribesmen to maintain their rule and as central control faltered, so often did intellectual achievement.

Spain went under. North Africa, India, Persia and Anatolia fractured into statelets. Egypt and Syria under the Mamluks was the dominant Islamic power from the 13th-15th centuries and was an exception to the pastoralist trend, as it relied on an imported military caste. It also controlled a major source of land revenues in the Nile, had an important sugar-refining and textile industry, and it dominated the overseas spice and luxury goods trade through the Red Sea and in partnership with Venice in the Mediterranean as overland routes ( the ‘Silk Road’ ) decayed. But it was government by controlled chaos, a constant parade of ever-shifting juntas usurping control from one another. Further it was hit hard by the Black Death in the mid-14th century - populations in Syria and Egypt dropped by 1/3 to 2/5 and unlike the similar devastation in Europe, there was no silver lining. In Europe there was not only a demographic decline, but a temporary demographic shift as urban populations and disrupted serfs fled to the wilderness, cleared forest and basically quickened a reclamation of “wastelands”. There were few similar wastelands worth reclaiming in the Middle East and available for Muslim peasants to flee and hide from fief-holders. As the Egyptian economic system was in essence an extractive one, feeding a parasitic military caste and geared to keep them in luxury, it has been argued ( by Abu-Lugod ) that it’s health was more closely tied to labor resources than its contemporaries. As population declined, the Mamluk caste resorted to ever-more exploitive methods of extracting revenue and basically strangled their own faltering economy. When Portugal outflanked them in the Indian Ocean in the late 15th/early 16th century, bottling up the Red Sea and destroying the Indian trade that they had become dependant on ( which incidentally also crippled Venice ), the state was basically undone and shortly was absorbed by the Ottomans.

The 15th, but even more significantly the 16th century, saw a ‘Muslim resurgence’ as three major states re-establish control over most of the central Islamic lands ( i.e. excluding the periphery of Southeat Asia and SubSaharan Africa ). The Mughuls in India, the Safavids in Persia, and the Ottomans eventually most everywhere else except the interior and southeast of Arabia and Morocco. Since we’re talking about the Arabs, I won’t address the first two, but the Ottoman Empire was obviously one of the world’s great dynastic states. Not only was it territorially huge and long-lived ( over 600 years ), but it saw a tremendous flowering of culture and even modernization in its early centuries. However as has been pointed out, the Ottomans declined and badly.

One crippling issue was the harem system. Earlier Sultans arose out of system where they held important posts before reaching the throne. After the mid-16th century this was not the case. Instead they emerged from cloister as often unevenly-educated political naifs, probably not the best system in the world for training the absolutist ruler of a massive empire. Absolute states depend on sound upper-management - absolutist France did well under workaholic, clever Loius XIV, not so well under Louis XV and Madame Pompadour.

The outflanking of the largely land-based Ottoman state ( to whom the Indian Ocean was at best a quaternary priority ) and Middle East generally by the Europeans, stifled long-term trading capacity and made them dependant on European monopolies. These would exert an increasing economic squeeze at the Ottoman’s expense as they declined, imposing ever more unequal trade treaties as time went on. The inflationary mess of the 16th century caused by New World silver hit the silver-standard Ottoman state even harder than Spain. Increasing court conservatism ( and the already made comparison to China is a good one ) led to not only ossification in the military system ( and concommitant praetorianization, which also compromised stable government ), but also retention of inefficient economic guild systems, that crippled innovation and entrepeneurship at the very time Europe was starting to take off. A general air of superiority ( again, at one time well-founded, just as with China ), and the antagonistic paradigm expressed in the tension between the Muslim and Christian empires led to a general stifling of cultural interchange, which was far more to the detriment of the slipping Ottomans. Long multi-decade wars on multiple fronts bled resources.

The point that the cultural center was Istanbul is also worth reiterating. The Ottomans conquered an Arab world already in decline as stated above and didn’t do much to regenerate it. It was treated as a revenue farm and otherwise partially left to languish. For example the Egyptian Mamluks were left in place and continued their parasitic, extractive ways. By the nadir of the Ottoman state in the 18th century, central control was almost negligible not only in most Arab regions, but in most of Turkish Anatolia as well and local governors looted the countryside as they pleased.

It is worth noting that the 19th century did see very significant reform and intellectual re-awakening in the Ottoman state. Modernization, in part impelled by the threat of the adventurer/rebellious vassal Muhammed Ali in Egypt ( and fr a time Syria, the Hijaz, and Iraq ), made significant strides. It is an open question how healthy a multi-ethnic Ottoman state would have continued to be if it hadn’t been dismantled after WW I. But it could scarcely been much worse than what did happen. Colonialism was less than healthy attitudinally for the MENA, fostering paranoia, humiliation, and resentment and generally not working to the greater benefit of the colonized ( though some clever dynasties worked it to their relative advantage, like the al-Sabah family of Kuwait ).

Anyway…what were we talking about :wink: ? Oh, yeah - decline of Arab intellectual discourse from the classical period. A long, bumpy multi-symptomatic progression with numerous peaks, declines, and revivals. Dunno if I even answered the question fully, but the above is a start.

  • Tamerlane

Man, what an ugly, rambling post :D. That’s what I get for trying to write in the wee hours of the morning.

Anyway…

Decline, certainly and I’d rather dispute the idea that Latin is still the language of the learned or has been even in recent centuries :wink: ( that annoyingLinnaeus, aside ).

It fell, alright. No Western Emperor between Romulus Augustus in 476 and Charlemagne in 800, remember. That’s 324 years - quite the interregnum :p. And the extent to which the HRE’s considered themselves Roman is pretty open to dispute. I’ll agree there was continuity of a sort, but I don’t think I’d take it as far as you do.

  • Tamerlane

Just chiming in with anecdotal experience here but my Palestinian Arab roommate’s pseudoevangelism would confirm that. One of my other roommates is a Pakistani and they have these loooong conversations about Islam and Christianity and Judaism and Israel…etc. Whenever I join them at the breakfast table and happen to fall into the conversational crosshairs, I’m constantly reminded that the Qu’ran is the “most comprehensive” source of knowledge that “answers everything” there is to know.

Tamerlane,

Thank you for the comprehensive Cliff Notes! Not rambling but more like “The Authoritative History of Arabia in Two Minutes” … I picture Robyn Williams speed reading it full tilt with characters acted out in the process! :slight_smile:

Thoughts on the what to do the rekindle it more successfully than did that 19th century short-lived and ill-fated modernization period?

Tamerlane has made good points and some other posters did the same.

Yet one of main reasons isn’t mentioned so far, namely the lack of interest for the “outside world” and its progress that was prelavent for centuries and especially during the Ottoman period.

Because in Islam religion and law, religion and tradition (read: customs and traditions of daily life adapted to Islam or influencing the traditions of Islam) are that much intertwined that there is hardly any division between both possible, “Islam and the Islamic State” were seen as enough and far above all the rest of the world.
Since the Ottoman Empire influenced for such a long time all and everything under its rule ( and beyond) this attitude of self-centered arrogance (in the sense of we are better since God is with us, which is not even something original) became one of the main factors of the decline.

This decline then was cause and opportunity for a chain reaction. Among which colonialism and protectorates (which was in practice the same but under an other name) as the cause of later problems who work until this very day.

As for answering the OP

One of the reasons is to be sought in colonialism and the fact that this prevented the vast majority of native population from having an education to begin with, or provided for an education at such a low standard that it was close to getting none.

Next reason for illiteracy that is still linked to colonialism is the fact that after states regained independency, the whole staff of educators of foreign origin left the country, leaving a gap that couldn’t be filled instantly seen the low educational level of the country’s citizens.

This gap is filled, yet in the meantime an other problem occured, that of exploding birth rates.
Thus the education system, that after indepency had to be constructed from a far below zero base, can’t possibly follow the amount of young people in need for an education.
Count to this the tendency of focussing on the younger generation and you shall see a great discrepancy appear between the generations.

An other problem of the current education system is that it enourages people to seek for one that gives acces to “white collar” jobs. This needs to be linked at the creation of such jobs by the state, following the (marxist inspired) ideal of creation “a job for everyone”.

This on its turn is catastrophical for several reasons among which the creation of the need to pay all these state employed and to entertain those created jobs.
This has of course its direct influence on the economy and its development with in addition to that the lack of investments made and even the lack of interest of governments in developping an economy they don’t control personally.

As for your claim that “the only education available is provided by fundamentalists”.

I think you have an incomplete idea of where “Arabs” live.
We don’t live all in Saudi Arabia where Wahabbism regns.
Or in for example Egypt, where the Muslims brotherhood used providing for education and other social services to gaine influence and support.
Fundamentalists have even schools in Western countries.
So I don’t know what exactly you are aiming at.

And no, intellectualism is not “the exception” but often is in conflict with the goverment and even with what is proclaimed to be “Islamic”.

The irony of this last claim is that Islam promotes education even above praying, following the well known command “Studying is better then praying”.
Yet as long as those who can freely proclaim themselves to “be” the “living Islam” are promoted and backed up by governments like the wahabbi lunatics (and their umbrella holding Western “friends”) I fear that there is not much of a cure to this in those nations who admire such an unislamic system without even recognizing it as unislamic.

Salaam. A

Mehitabel, for your information some info on the Al Azhar


Al-Azhar Faculties

Faculties for Boys

A- In Cairo
Faculty of Islamic Theology.
Faculty of Islamic Jurisprudence and Law.
Faculty of Arabic Language.
Faculty of Islamic and Arabic Studies.
Faculty of Da’wa, Islamic Call.
Faculty of Education.
Faculty of Languages and Translation.
Faculty of Science.
Faculty of Medicine.
Faculty of Pharmacy.
Faculty of Dentistry.
Faculty of Agriculture.
Faculty of Commerce.
Faculty of Engineering.

B- The Regions
Faculty of Islamic Theology and Da’wa in Assiut.
Faculty of Islamic Jurisprudence and Law in Assiut.
Faculty of Arabic Language in Assiut.
Faculty of Islamic Theology and Da’wa in Zagazig.
Faculty of Islamic Arabic Language in Zagazig.
Faculty of Islamic Theology and Da’wa in Tanta.
Faculty of Islamic Jurisprudence and Law in Tanta.
Faculty of Islamic Theology and Da’wa in Mansoura.
Faculty of Arabic Language in Mansoura.
Faculty of Islamic Theology and Da’wa in Menofiya.
Faculty of Arabic Language in Shebin El-Koum.
Faculty of Islamic Jurisprudence and Law in Damanhour.
Faculty of Arabic Language in Damanhour (Itia El-Baroud).
Faculty of Medicine in Assiut.
Faculty of Dentistry in Assiut.
Faculty of Pharmacy in Assiut.
Faculty of Science in Assiut.
Faculty of Islamic Jurisprudence and Law in Al-Menofiya.
Faculty of Arabic Language in Girga.
Faculty of Islamic and Arabic Studies in Qina.
Faculty of Islamic Studies for Boys in Aswan.
Faculty of Arabic Studies for Boys in Diemyiat.
Faculty of Agriculture in Assiut.
Faculty of Quranic Studies in Tanta.

Faculty for Girls

A- In Cairo
Faculty of Arabic and Islamic Studies.
Faculty of Humanities.
Faculty of Medicine.
Faculty of Science.
Faculty of Commerce.

B- Governerates
Faculty of Arabic and Islamic Studies in Assiut.
Faculty of Arabic and Islamic Studies in Suhag.
Faculty of Arabic and Islamic Studies in Alexandria.
Faculty of Arabic and Islamic Studies in Mansoura.


I don’t know, but since I was tehre once as a student, I have the impression that it covers a bit more then “being able to recite large portions of Al Qur’an”.
And by the way: Those madrassas who indeed focus on this, expect students to recite the whole Qur’an by heart. Even to the point that one is expected to recite one single sentence picked out of a sura at will. There are even a lot of schools in for example “Black African” nations who focuss on just that.

Salaam. A

Isn’t it a bit of a stretch to still be blaming some mysterious force called “colonialism” for the low illiteracy rates in Islamic cultures?

As you well know, no Islamic culture anywhere has ever been able to produce anything admirable in and of itself, but to blame some old bugaboo you call “colonialism” for the current deficiency in literacy levels that exist in Islamic cultures (let us not tactlessly mention the male/female difference here) is a bit of a stretch, is it not?

You and I are both fellow students of Islam, but I don’t understand how something as antique as “colonialism” (I presume you are referring only to the Western European kind) can be responsible for the high level of illiteracy of you and your fellow Muslims.

AOB

Once again you demonstrate Great Wisdom and Knowledge Of Islam and Its History and Culture.

You should keep on trying.
Salaam. A

Note: If you find any misspelling or grammar failiors in my posts, this is due to the fact that the one who types them on my command is an illiterate Arab like I am.

i dont know about that, as there are more illiterate women than men in many arab and islamic countries which show cultural endorsement of selective illiteracy rather than illiteracy as a general a side effect of colonialism. If it were colonialism then both men & women would be equally illiterate.

I think the Taj Mahal is a pretty cool building.