Damn, bTam**.
’ always gotta take my hat off when I’m reading you on a roll.
Jojo, I think you need to use only the “A” lists for your comparison. The “B” lists in the Regions and Governerates appear to be branch campuses. So, while Aldebaran was certainly being disingenuous to post the “B” lists as if they indicated more diversity, it is not exactly accurate to say that they could all be collapsed into single faculty since they actually represent simply different campuses.
Tomndebb,
Yes, the A list is Cairo, the B list is the regions. For boys in Cairo, we get the following faculties:
Does a university really need:
a school of Islamic Theology
a school of Islamic Law
a school of Islamic and Arabic Studies
and
a school of Da’wa, Islamic Calling?
The poor sods in the regions get offered this:
Assiut seems like the place to be. They get medicine, dentistry, chemistry, science and agriculture (but no engineering, I note). Everyone else just gets religious hogwash.
As for girls, they do ok in Cairo, they get:
But in the regions, their only choices are:
Sorry, this does not constitute a valid educational syllabus by any standards I am comfortable with. Just a load of religious indoctrination.
I see that the boys with the “We have The Great Education System and all the rest is rubbish” showing their complete ignorance about what I refer to, are on board.
Well, to make it myself easy, I shall for once leave my rule not to give links to any websites for what it is and give you the link to the Al Azhar.
There you can read its history and goals, which are not comparable with any other university in the Islamic world.
http://www.frcu.eun.eg/www/universities/html/azhar.html#education
Yes, we are indeed talking about the Islamic world, not about yours. We are talking about a world with centuries old universities with centuries old tradition of authority.
And no, the Al Azhar doesn’t “need” to “compete” with anything you have and nothing you have shall ever be able to compete with the Al Azhar or even come close to it.
It can’t hurt you to open up your mind with accepting that your universities can’t offer what they offer to those interested in it, but that they can offer what your universities offer to those interested, yet that they don’t “need” to offer every single program your universities offer. (If that principle isn’t too difficult for you to grasp.)
By the way, I gave that listing only to answer the wildly posted claim that Al Azhar only prepares its students to parrot Al Qur’an by heart, which makes all your comments completely irrelevant.
And if you want to come across as less unadult, try to get some overview of programs at universties in my part of the world instead of jumping like little children around crying “see, they only give religious education” while not even knowing let be understanding what you are talking about.
Sorry to give you a cold shower here, but you need to open your eyes and read what I post before giving insulting comments about my “intentions”.
There are no other intentions in my posts then what you read.
I posted a list of the faculties. If you don’t have eyes to see that this also covers regional campuses, that is not my fault but your inability to read what I post for what it is.
Salaam. A
Indoctrinated on the Al Azhar in Islamic and Arabic Studies, in Islamic Jurisprudence and Law (oh well, I didn’t exactly finish that one so that makes me “more normal” I suppose) and in Arabic language.
God, now that I do think of it… I am really completely utterly brainwashed.
Mind you what a really special individual I must be that - after all these years of endless indoctrination with that crap, and mind you that it already began at home when I was a baby - I am still able to even think and reason enough to write the language of the Great Satan.
Now I know why they take me for an excentric lunatic everywhere I go.
God, now that I think of it: There are univ’s in the USA where you can do Islamic and Araibc studies on departments for Oriental studies (Princeton comes in mind)…
Are you people mad?
They are certainly crazy in Belgium where I studied on the same issues…
The world is doomed, no?
DSeid,
Yes, I know of the reports you talk about but it is some time ago that I’ve read it.
I’m a bit short in time right now but I shall try to give a comment later this day or tomorrow.
Salaam. A
Excellent advice that you could improve yourself by taking.
You claim that you were simply responding a statement by Mehitabel, but she clearly indicated that recitation of the Qu’ran was deemed sufficient in some places, not that there was no other education offered.
In my opinion this is a direct reference to the Al Azhar as “being famous” to have a curriculum only focussed on the ability to “recite large portions of Al Qur’an”.
Why other then to indicate this, the adding “but maybe the curriculum is what changed” ?
The rest of that post also pointS in that direction.
Which was the reason why I listed the faculties.
By the way: I don’t need to “fear for my life” for having done and written a doctoral study on Al Qur’an as text, nor for anything else I have done so far.
Salaam. A
OK Aldie, don’t get your knickers in a twist. I’ve bolded your quotes:
Yes, we are indeed talking about the Islamic world, not about yours.
How do you know what my “world” is?
We are talking about a world with centuries old universities with centuries old tradition of authority.
Hey, Aldie, I come from the UK. Oxford University dates back to the twelfth century. And teaching began there in 1096. Don’t try to lecture me on centuries-old universities - it doesn’t impress me.
I read your link to al Azhar University. Even they admit they are religious:
In fact, by the laws of their university, they are restricted by religion:
It was born out of religion:
And it still retains religious discrimination:
Note: The University is open to all MUSLIM students, not all students.
This is the wrong purpose for a university to have. It should attempt to further knowledge (and eradicate ignorance) regardless of whether or not said knowledge contradicts “islamic truths”. It should endeavour to seek truth whether that contradicts religion or not.
For example, the boiling point of water is 100 degrees centigrade. It is always 100 degrees centrigrade whether islam (or any other religion) likes it or not. This is an example of a indisputable fact. Universities should endeavour to teach indisputable facts - religions are a matter of opinion.
Universities should teach religion, of course, but they shouldn’t make it their guiding principle.
Then it’s a shit university. It has no business “strengthening the spiritual ties of islam”. It should teach people indisputable facts, it shouldn’t have a bias before it even starts.
Basically it shouldn’t call itself a university, it should call itself a Religious Indoctrination Centre. It’s an insult to the whole idea of universities. It’s kinda the opposite of what universities should be.
Yes, Aldie, you are brainwashed. Thoroughly so. Not because you went to al Azhar, your brainwashing began long before that. The society you mix in is partly to blame - the society that accepts islam as indisputable fact. It’s NOT indisputable fact, it’s opinion.
Your society (by which I mean muslim society) should learn to distinguish between indisputable fact and opinion. The difference between 100 degrees centigrade and the nature of God.
Well, Jojo to be fair, Al Azhar is attached to one of Islam’s premier ( perhaps THE premier ) mosques/theological centers, so it’s not surprising that it focuses so heavily on theology. There are plenty of other public and private universities in the MENA which don’t emphasize religion nearly as much. For example here is the program for the University of Jordan ( http://www.ju.edu.jo/ ). You’ll note only one of 18 “faculties” is theological:
http://www.ju.edu.jo/program/index.htm
Or Iran’s largest school, the University of Teheran, where the “Faculty of Theology” is one of 16 and the programs it offers comprise 5 out of ( apparently ) 115 academic fields ( top corner links under “Academic Centers” lists the faculties ):
- Tamerlane
Very interesting thread, but I’m surprised no one has mentioned the Mu’tazilis, Ibn Hanbal, Taymiyya, Wahhab, etc… I’d like to expound, but…it’s…four in the morning, so I think I’ll put it off.
Well they’re side issues to some extent. Not insignificant ones to be sure, but really the first was a dead issue even before the classical period ended in Islam. The second was ( and remains ) very much a minority view on jurisprudence that cannot be said to have enormously impacted the Islamic world as a whole.
The final two ( with Hanbalism ) really only came into prominence in modern times and though Taymiyya’s philosophy and Wahabism have had some reverberation outside of the Arabian penninsula in the spread of radical Islamism, their practical impact on education would appear to be more localized there and in Pakistan/Afghanistan where Deobandism also picked up ibn Taymiyya’s reactionary refrain. They are part and parcel of the intellectual malaise of some sections of the Islamic world, but as much symptoms as causes, I’d say.
- Tamerlane
Iranis aren’t Arabs.
True enough, but Iran is an Islamic theocracy of sorts. The fact that their largest public university is not swamped with religious curricula shows that such is not automatically the default mode in the Islamic world. Al Azhar is a bit of a special case, I’d say.
- Tamerlane
Besides, they had an easily accessible webpage in English to reference. Gimme a break here :D.
- Tamerlane
And you know, some Iranian nationals are Arabs. What? I’m not stretching at all ;).
- Tamerlane
I would have responded long ago had I seen this. I have a quick list I’ve been churning over in my head for a while. Most of this has been mentioned, but it’s all relevant.
- Muslim extremism (fundamentalism with a twist)
- Pan-Arabism.
- Socialism/Communism
- Fascism
- Anti-Semitism (religious intolerance generally)
- Tribal-primitive views about social issues from adultery to homosexuality.
- There has been no humanistic renaissance or reformation of significance in the modern Muslim world, yet.
Put all that in a blender and you get a repressive, anti-intellectual and backwards society. They name their kids “Usama.” One becoms a “martyr” through futile gestures of murderous rage.
And Jojo, in the interest of fairness, there are numerous openly religious universities in the Christian world. And in much of the West, these institutions accept non-Christian (or more specifically non-Catholic/Mormon/Baptist/etc.) students only because the State imposes that requirement. In any case, if universities limited themselves to “teaching undisputable facts” (your words), even in the secular colleges we’d wipe out most of the Humanities and a huge chunk of the Social Sciences departments.
(BTW, I know what you meant, but “indisputable fact” in the Natural Sciences of the sort you use as example – like that water boils at 100C in standard atmospheric conditions, or that the cosine of 45 degrees is half the suare root of 2, or Ohm’s Law – will not collide with religious doctrine. Better contrast would be scientifically sound explanations for the facts, such things as Darwinist evolution, Big Bang cosmology, or Deep Time geology. But of course those impinge on more than just Islamic sensibilities…)
The thread is about Arab culture. Iran has always been a standout in the Islamic world as far as attitude to science education is concerned. Among the Middle-Eastern nations, besides Israel and Kuwait(a competitor only on paper), Iran is the only country to participate in the International Science Olympiads (and do well).
Well, I did cite the University of Jordan as well. Throw me a bone, will ya :).
They’re not Arab either, but you’re forgetting Turkey - they participate and have won the occasional medal in math and physics, I believe.
- Tamerlane