# What went wrong with Black Americans? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 18, 2005, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-went-wrong-with-black-americans/285430 "2005-01-18T21:37:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-went-wrong-with-black-americans/285430/61 "2005-01-19T21:28:28Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Nobody to this point has mentioned the consequences of self-destructive choices. Perhaps because its obvious what the consequences of self-destructive choices are: self-destruction. This thread is about why self-destructive choices are overly represented among blacks. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-went-wrong-with-black-americans/285430/62 "2005-01-19T21:45:46Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > We can debate why they choose to do so forever. Some will say they have no choice given the environment that they find themselves in. But who is responsible for perpetuating the negative aspects of that environment? Better still you should ask, “Who is responsible for **eliminating** the negative aspects of that environment?” Hint: It ain’t Jamal Washington. ---
**Author:** ![KellyM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/57b2e6/32.png) [@KellyM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyM)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-went-wrong-with-black-americans/285430/63 "2005-01-19T23:28:22Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > Perhaps because its obvious what the consequences of self-destructive choices are: self-destruction. This thread is about why self-destructive choices are overly represented among blacks. I think that’s rather obvious, myself: it’s because black people are overrepresented among the poor. Being poor doesn’t necessarily make you more prone to self-destructive behavior, but it makes it more likely that you won’t be able to avoid (or recover from) the consequences as easily. I suspect that in many of the comments in this thread, “black” is being used as a proxy for “poor”. ---
**Author:** ![iggy\_popov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f17d59/32.png) [@iggy\_popov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iggy_popov)\ **Post date:** [January 19, 2005, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-went-wrong-with-black-americans/285430/64 "2005-01-19T23:57:59Z")
What went wrong with Black Americans? White Americans. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 11:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-went-wrong-with-black-americans/285430/65 "2005-01-20T11:19:22Z")
> [@astro](#): > > IMO these are all secondary symptoms of the root cause of the high rates of various black social pathologies. It beings and ends with fathers. The black man was broken and forcibly removed from the center of family life by over 100 years of slavery. The matriarchial family structure that had to reform around the mother, can work in some circumstances, but is at a huge disadvantage structurally, economically, and socially in competing with other mother + father centric family structures. > > With fathers largely absent from the equation, you often get dangerous, immature, man-children driven by a desire to achieve and win, but without the social or mental tools or appropriate behavioral frameworks to go about it constructively. > > I wouldn’t be a black American man for all the tea in China. There’s no place for most of them at the social table, either in in the overwhelmingly matriarchail centric black family structure that pervades black culture, or in the society at large. It amazes me that some people think that a family structure systematically and deliberately broken over centuries is going to pull up it’s socks and get on with life in a few decades. > > We are reaping (and will continue to reap for some time) what slavery and the destruction of the black family has sown. Okay, if no one else is going to take this on genuinely… Do you have a cite for any of this? Especially the “dangerous, immature, man-children” thing? Do you think things are really that doom-and-gloom for blacks? And most importantly, do you realize that messages like yours are the least-constructive anyone can hear (basically you just told me to give up on life). ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-went-wrong-with-black-americans/285430/66 "2005-01-20T12:56:40Z")
> [@holmes](#): > > 90% of blacks are engaged in destructive behaviour? 45% percent? Who’s this “they” and how did you come to know what “they” value? What do you base this knowledge on? “They” in this case are those who create and distribute destructive behavior and ideas to themselves and younger people. The exact percentage of blacks engaged in destructive behavior is almost impossible to quantify. However, it appears that it is high enough in some areas to reach critical mass and affect the environment of all, not just those who choose to engage in it. The point I am trying to make is that behavioral choices got Americas black population in the mess it is in today and it will take positive behavior choices to do something about it. Americas economy is more stratified than ever. You have to decide fairly early in life if you are going to walk on the path of success or not. The path includes an education and a clean criminal record. If you choose to voluntarily remove yourself from the path, you will reap the consequences for the rest of your life. The opportunities are there for minorities for a college education…they just have to decide whether they are going to behave in such a way as to make themselves eligible to take advantage of them. ---
**Author:** ![Lissa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lissa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissa)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-went-wrong-with-black-americans/285430/67 "2005-01-20T14:05:48Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > The opportunities are there for minorities for a college education…they just have to decide whether they are going to behave in such a way as to make themselves eligible to take advantage of them. It’s not as simple as merely deciding to succeed. If that were true, most of America would be successful. This viewpoint seems to me to stem from the old Protestant ethic in which those who don’t succeed have no one to blame but themselves, and that anyone who wants to and is willing to work will end up rich. Bullshit. Don’t you have to have parents and peers who encourage you to make those right choices, or is somehow doing the right thing supposed to be instinctual? Without guidance, how does a kid know what the right choice is, when everyone around him is tacitly urging him to chose wrong? Where is he supposed to get his Protestant Work Ethic ™ if all he sees around him are people who work like dogs but never get ahead in life? Where is he supposed to learn polite social interraction when no one around him displays it? “What do you want?” is a perfectly valid question to ask a customer, but it’s more politely phrased, “May I help you?” This is another thing which is not instinctual, but can severely limit a kid’s opprotunities unless learned. And, no, college is not for everyone. What about the kid who’s not-so-smart-- the kid who barely gets a “C” though he’s trying as hard as he can? What about the kid who’s grossly unprepared by his public school-- who can’t do the higher reading or math required by college-- the one who almost has to have a tutor re-teach high school? Who feels absolutely overwhelmed and out-of-place? What about the kid who can’t get a scholarship to cover all costs, but for some reason can’t work to make up for it? (Family obligations, tutoring, health problems?) What about the kid who’s always been discouraged from learning by oeers and family? Where is he supposed to get this urge to learn? There are many things holding back the poor. It’s not just laziness. ---
**Author:** ![Uncommon\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Uncommon\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uncommon_Sense)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-went-wrong-with-black-americans/285430/68 "2005-01-20T15:49:37Z")
I think the problem with Black America is that they keep believing their politicians. Let’s back up a little first. Blacks in America have always been a huge political issue. The reason why they are concentrated in the inner cities (mostly) is due to the fact that that there has been political pressure in the past to segregate. Sometimes under the guise of ‘providing’ schooling and cheap housing. A problem created long ago is still being used today as a crutch for many politicians. About 15% of the vote nationwide can be counted on by the party that promises them the most. These promises never materialise, and the party gets to use them as a vote base the next time around. The same thing can be said about Social Security, Healthcare, Taxes, etc… Continuous feed bags for the party that chooses to exploit the issues with no intention of resolving the problems. Blacks are always being promised things by politicians and the government. I think they honestly believe that one day someone is going to break through and deliver. It aint gonna happen. They wont be able to break out of the circle until they realise that their going to have to do it on their own. Start thinking more independently, stop blaming others for their social and financial failures, and most importantly realise that no-one is going to solve their problems except them. If you allow yourself to blame others for your shortcomings then you will never see the real solutions. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-went-wrong-with-black-americans/285430/69 "2005-01-20T16:08:06Z")
Of course it is _possible_ for a black person to rise up society’s strata, just as it is possible for a molecule in that unstirred drink to osmose to the surface. But to focus on that mere _possibility_ and ignore the desperate plight of the vast _millions_ at the bottom is, I suggest, like ignoring cancer survival statistics and celebrating the few who beat the odds. ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-went-wrong-with-black-americans/285430/70 "2005-01-20T16:12:27Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > “They” in this case are those who create and distribute destructive behavior and ideas to themselves and younger people. > \>snip\< > The point I am trying to make is that behavioural choices got Americas black population in the mess it is in today and it will take positive behavior choices to do something about it. > > If you choose to voluntarily remove yourself from the path, you will reap the consequences for the rest of your life. Ah I think I see your problem. Let’s forget about Race for second and use gender. Let’s make the “They” wife abusers. We know and if you want, I’ll dig up a cite. We know that a high percentage of wife abusers, witness their mothers being abused. We know that many abused women have a pattern of chosing men that will abuse them. because they witness their mother’s being abused and equate that with being loved. The two-patterns, the two “behaviours” are interlocked and are often passed down from older to younger, not one generation but usually multi-generational. The original “sinner”, is most likely long dead; but and this is the thing you don’t seem to get, the society at the time allowed such behaviour to exist; even encouraged it. Your wife is giving you a bit of “lip”, smack her one; it is in my opinion only recently that we as a society have made such behaviour taboo…but not nearly enough. Now does the wife abuser and abused have responsibility for their actions? Absolutely. However and this what you seem to not see, their ‘choice’ are at least for them, limited. They are tainted by their earlier experiences. While you can see that getting smacked is bad and she should leave. SHE sees, she has three kids to support, or family that believes that a wife should stay with husband no matter what and won’t help her. Or she afraid to lose her kids or be killed or that husbands smack their wives, because that’s the way she was brought up. It’s easy to say standing on the outside looking in, go to a women’s shelter. It’s easy to say that she “voluntarily” stays to get smacked or that she chose her husband. That’s a nice simple binary thought. “Your husband hits you, leave.” However clearly that choice isn’t binary for many, many women. We need to fix society, so she can CLEARLY see she as the choice to leave. Does she deserve to “reap the consequences for the rest of her life”? Does her kids? The behaviour you rail against didn’t start with her, or her mother; it may end with her and that’ll be a great thing, but unless SOCIETY at large, not just abused women, but society decides not to excuse wife abusers; they’ll be another generation just like her and him. Now let’s get back to the African-American experience in America. For generations, the society at large didn’t allow African-Americans the same rights as rest of society. They even created laws, that effectively crippled generations of African-Americans from succeding. No work, no matter how HARD; was going to stop Jim Crow. No work, not matter you hard, was going to get you into certain Universities, or Good Jobs or anything else for that matter. This wasn’t 200 years ago, it was 40; within my lifetime. I can’t imagine what it must have been like, but it must have been like a cancer, eating people up inside. Which means you had generations of people disillusioned with the promises made. Generations of people forced into poverty, not because their parents were drunks or had too many fatherless children, but because the Government. The issues you see a “behavioural” issue for blacks, are the issues that most people in poverty faced and have faced for generations. This isn’t a “black” thing, but a poor thing, it so happens that because of the way society worked out, a high percentage of poor happen to be black. The issues that caused that had more to do with the behaviour of the society, that directed the behaviour of the actual people. To understand choice without the burden of reality is a difficult thing to do sometimes and choice doesn’t exist in a vaccum. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-went-wrong-with-black-americans/285430/71 "2005-01-20T17:16:58Z")
> [@Uncommon Sense](#): > > The reason why they are concentrated in the inner cities (mostly) is due to the fact that that there has been political pressure in the past to segregate. Sometimes under the guise of ‘providing’ schooling and cheap housing. A problem created long ago is still being used today as a crutch for many politicians. About 15% of the vote nationwide can be counted on by the party that promises them the most. Perhaps because the other party doesn’t even bother to give lip service to them and has a history of pushing for policies that negatively (and disproportionately) affect them. Such as the death penalty, dissolution of welfare, abolition of Affirmative Action, and all the ugliness associated with the War on Drugs. > [@](#): > > These promises never materialise, and the party gets to use them as a vote base the next time around. If the promises never materilize, why would blacks vote for them again? Perhaps you need to think about what why the alternative strikes them as being so unappealing. > [@](#): > > The same thing can be said about Social Security, Healthcare, Taxes, etc… Continuous feed bags for the party that chooses to exploit the issues with no intention of resolving the problems. As opposed to the _other_ party that does what, exactly? > [@](#): > > Blacks are always being promised things by politicians and the government. I think they honestly believe that one day someone is going to break through and deliver. It aint gonna happen. Where are you getting this from? How many blacks do you know actually regard politicians are a savior figure? I know none. In fact, most black people I know regard politicans much more cynically and skeptically than the white people I know. The reality is that _because_ blacks have heard the promises over and over again, they don’t expect a lot from political leaders. Why do you think the black vote is underrepresented? Blacks are professional at voting for the lesser of two (or more) evils, as opposed to voting for someone they have a whole lot of confidence in. (In contrast, I see a lot of white people placing faith in the promises of folks like Bush. Makes this cynical black chick roll her eyes.) > [@](#): > > They wont be able to break out of the circle until they realise that their going to have to do it on their own. Start thinking more independently, stop blaming others for their social and financial failures, and most importantly realise that no-one is going to solve their problems except them. If you allow yourself to blame others for your shortcomings then you will never see the real solutions. All this sounds good and all, but we are not talking about a race of people. We are talking about poor people. How many poor people do you know have been able to break out of poverty on their own? We hear all the Horatio Alger stories, but that’s because those tend to be exceptions to the rule. Poor people often need a leg up by someone with more resources before they are able to break out of the cycle they’re in. So that means that if _society_ as a whole wants to improve things, those who have will have to help those who don’t. That includes blacks _and_ white. ---
**Author:** ![archmichael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bb73d2/32.png) [@archmichael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/archmichael)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2005, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-went-wrong-with-black-americans/285430/72 "2005-01-20T18:27:55Z")
> [@you with the face](#): > > How many poor people do you know have been able to break out of poverty on their own? We hear all the Horatio Alger stories, but that’s because those tend to be exceptions to the rule. Sometimes I wonder if the media does a great disservice by doing these type of stories. They highlight how difficult it was to break the cycle of poverty, and the sense of amazement. Instead of a message of “It can be done”, it ends up being “The odds are really stacked against you, so we don’t expect much” ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-went-wrong-with-black-americans/285430/73 "2005-01-21T15:14:29Z")
Holmes, I ask you in all seriousness and sincerity…what is the answer then? One thing that must happen immediately is to attack the culture of anti-intellectualism. Children who speak proper English and do well academically are mocked and derided for “acting white”. This kills the root of the tree of future prosperity. Values and behavior are best regulated peer to peer. Unless more poor people (not just black) are willing to do this, the cycle will continue. No amount of money thrown at the problem will have more effect than people saying “enough is enough”. ---
**Author:** ![Demorian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demorian/32/7273_2.png) [@Demorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demorian)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-went-wrong-with-black-americans/285430/74 "2005-01-21T15:32:39Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Children who speak proper English and do well academically are mocked and derided for “acting white”. Just curious, is there a more detailed study about this, or is it ancedotal/sterotyping? ---
**Author:** ![holmes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e95f7d/32.png) [@holmes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/holmes)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-went-wrong-with-black-americans/285430/75 "2005-01-21T15:59:03Z")
> [@Evil One](#): > > Holmes, I ask you in all seriousness and sincerity…what is the answer then? > > One thing that must happen immediately is to attack the culture of anti-intellectualism. Children who speak proper English and do well academically are mocked and derided for “acting white”. This kills the root of the tree of future prosperity. Values and behavior are best regulated peer to peer. Unless more poor people (not just black) are willing to do this, the cycle will continue. No amount of money thrown at the problem will have more effect than people saying “enough is enough”. The answer first and foremost is to stop spreading Urban myths, or treating such behaviour as being a unique black issue; such as the “acting white” one you just mentioned. It isn’t uncommon for educated black people to be attacked by whites, in the manner that you just attributed to blacks. “He’s one of them educated niggers” is always a popular saying. So what does the younger generation learn? Keep your intelligence to yourself…this is NO different than what many intelligent girls feel. How many young women are told that their best feature is their beauty or that boys don’t like smart girls? How many girls are directed into nursing as opposed to mathematics in school? What’s the answer to that question? Having their “values and behavior are best regulated peer to peer?” Does that make sense to you? If my peers are being fed the stuff that I am, why would they have a different worldview than me? I keep trying to pound this into you, this is not a black issue; but one of society. Once you stop attributing behaviours has being **unique** to black people or even poor people, you’ll find a solution. Hell, some people believe that anti-intellectualism is in full force at the White House, what’s the solution to that? The solution is of course for society to reward and recognize average people. That means banks offer loans to homesteaders in crappy neighbourhoods, most people will treat their OWN homes, better than the one that the government provides for them. The next solution is to offer low interest or tax-free business loans to people; provided they have a decent business plan; just like they do the rich folks. The next thing is to enforce or reduce the amount of “redlining” that occurs in poor neighbourhoods and to create smaller “private” schools that allows people the ability to pull their decent kids out of the failing public school system. The next thing to do is to treat the lives of all poor people with the same value as they do the wealthier ones. People don’t value life or property, because they know from prior experience, that the police don’t come or do the bare minimum. A strong, but FAIR police presence can turn bad neighbourhoods around. The solution is for the media to promote images of people who speak and act well. If I’m a kid and see uneducated sportsmen or musicians make millions of dollars, or TV shows in which people that speak poorly; still have mansions and tricked out cars…then what’s does that say to me? What you’re witnessing is the stumbling of our society. All of us, not just black or poor people. As always, the poor reflects the failures of society FIRST, but our time will come. ---
**Author:** ![Balduran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cc9497/32.png) [@Balduran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balduran)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-went-wrong-with-black-americans/285430/76 "2005-01-21T17:06:47Z")
> [@SentientMeat](#): > > Of course it is _possible_ for a black person to rise up society’s strata, just as it is possible for a molecule in that unstirred drink to osmose to the surface. > > But to focus on that mere _possibility_ and ignore the desperate plight of the vast _millions_ at the bottom is, I suggest, like ignoring cancer survival statistics and celebrating the few who beat the odds. Yes. Most of us aren’t particulary smart or talented or hard-working. When you’re born into good circumstances, winning the genetic lottery isn’t such a big deal but it can be a sentence to a lifetime of poverty otherwise. To the point about **destructive choices**. Sometimes these destructive choices are not willfully destructive, but short-term thinking. When you are trying to survive day to day, you don’t always have the resources or skillset for long-term planning. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2005, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-went-wrong-with-black-americans/285430/77 "2005-01-21T19:03:23Z")
I also think a major problem for the Black people was that they had the tremendous bad luck to have migrated to the cities, just as the “post-industrial” economy came to be. The southern, rural balcks started migrating north after WWII, just as factories (and the numerous,labor-intensive businesses that sustained them) started shutting down. Take Detroit, for example-the auto factories started moving out, taking thjousands of well-paying jobs with them. Like it or not, factory jobs were often the first step , on the ladder to middle-class lifestyles. The steady work and good wages made it possible for millons of blue-collar workers to send their soins and daughters to college…a great many workers themselves went to school at night. By the early 1970’s, just about all of these jobs were gone from the inner cities…all that was left were service jobs (hotel workers, maids, streetcleaners), and civil service jobs (of which white people had a hammerlock on). Now, if you are so unfortunate as to be born black in a city like Detroit, there’s damn little in the way of decent jobs. So, America (and balck society in particular) has paid a very high price for shipping all the factory jobs to China. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-went-wrong-with-black-americans/285430.md?page=3)