# What were "Clockwise" and "Counter-Clockwise" before clocks? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 13, 2003, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-clockwise-and-counter-clockwise-before-clocks/213119 "2003-11-13T22:25:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![JRR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecccb3/32.png) [@JRR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRR)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-clockwise-and-counter-clockwise-before-clocks/213119/1 "2003-11-13T22:25:55Z")
How were the directions “Clockwise” and “Counter-Clockwise” described before modern clocks were common? ---
**Author:** ![Loopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loopus/32/15343_2.png) [@Loopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopus)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-clockwise-and-counter-clockwise-before-clocks/213119/2 "2003-11-13T22:36:43Z")
Sundialwise and countersundialwise? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Tallayan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Tallayan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tallayan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-clockwise-and-counter-clockwise-before-clocks/213119/3 "2003-11-13T22:37:26Z")
Correct me if i’m wrong but don’t clocks go that way based on sundials? I would assume then, they were never anything else in english. ---
**Author:** ![gotpasswords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@gotpasswords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gotpasswords)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-clockwise-and-counter-clockwise-before-clocks/213119/4 "2003-11-13T22:38:05Z")
A quick check with my friendly neighborhood Wiccan (I’m in a rather eclectic area!) comes up with: deosil = clockwise widdershins = counter-clockwise This is related to the Earth’s rotation, so these directions apply to the northern hemisphere. Below the Equator, you’d need to reverse them. ---
**Author:** ![BlackNGold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@BlackNGold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackNGold)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-clockwise-and-counter-clockwise-before-clocks/213119/5 "2003-11-13T23:01:24Z")
My dictionary doesn’t list “deosil”, but I remember a Terry Pratchett book using “turn-wise” and “widdershins” ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2003, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-clockwise-and-counter-clockwise-before-clocks/213119/6 "2003-11-13T23:40:08Z")
The thing is that deosil and widdeshins aren’t comparable to clockwise/counter clockwise. They refer to the Earths rotation and can only possibly be used for objects resting on a flat surface. For an object on a vertical surface or, heaven forbid, upside down they are completely meaningless. Consider the average wall clock. Do the hands turn widdershoins or deosil? It all depends on whether you have it on the north or south wall. Only when the clock is placed on the floor is the rotation unambiguous. The answer to the question seems to be that before clocks people simply used left and right handed or the local equivalent. Even today it is more common in the trades to refer to left or right handed threads etc than to speak of them being clockwise or conterclockwise. If an object moves to the right at the top it is right handed. If it moves to the left it’s left handed. SImple enough. ---
**Author:** ![raygirvan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ac91a4/32.png) [@raygirvan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raygirvan)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-clockwise-and-counter-clockwise-before-clocks/213119/7 "2003-11-14T02:38:23Z")
“Deosil” is also called “sunwise”. However, I’m suspicious of the the etymologies of this and “widdershins”. Chambers Dictionary mentions them both (as “withershins” and “deasil”, in various spellings) as Scottish dialect words. To me, they have a flavour of modern Wicca rediscoveries from a minority dialect source, rather than words that were in general English usage pre-clocks. ---
**Author:** ![adirondack\_mike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b5a626/32.png) [@adirondack\_mike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adirondack_mike)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-clockwise-and-counter-clockwise-before-clocks/213119/8 "2003-11-14T03:09:59Z")
Lefty Loosey, Righty Tighty 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-clockwise-and-counter-clockwise-before-clocks/213119/9 "2003-11-14T03:17:27Z")
Damn, I’d never heard that one before **adirondack\_mike**. Now I can relate this to my wife and she’ll have no excuse for asking me which damn way to turn things! ---
**Author:** ![commie\_sho](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/db5fbb/32.png) [@commie\_sho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commie_sho)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-clockwise-and-counter-clockwise-before-clocks/213119/10 "2003-11-14T05:39:53Z")
My WAG: Clockwise=“That way” Counter Clockwise=“No, the other way!” ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-clockwise-and-counter-clockwise-before-clocks/213119/11 "2003-11-14T07:26:37Z")
raygirvan - - I’m not sure how common deosil was, but I remember running into widdershins in old fairy tails more than forty years ago. Seems that walking widdershins around a church was one way to get stolen by fairies. Blake - - the clock turns deosil. Even if you lay the clock face side down on the floor. Unless, of course, it’s transparent. It is only indirectly related to the earth going around the sun. It’s the apparent motion of the sun going around the earth if you look south, which is where the sun is located most of the year in the northere temperate zones. Resting on flat surfaces is not necessary. Deosil=Clockwise, widdershins=counter clock. Don’t work to make this more difficult. If you’re having trouble, then tonight as you’re falling asleep, imagine a clear crystal clock with no numbers slowly revolving in front of you. Let me know if you revolve it around a vertical axis or a horizontal one. ---
**Author:** ![Major\_Feelgud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3be4f8/32.png) [@Major\_Feelgud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Major_Feelgud)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-clockwise-and-counter-clockwise-before-clocks/213119/12 "2003-11-14T11:01:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JRR \* > \*\*How were the directions “Clockwise” and “Counter-Clockwise” described before modern clocks were common? \*\* Turn to your left and turn to your right. ---
**Author:** ![croakdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b77776/32.png) [@croakdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/croakdale)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-clockwise-and-counter-clockwise-before-clocks/213119/13 "2003-11-14T11:36:48Z")
anyway, we all know its clockwise and anti-clockwise…😃 ---
**Author:** ![NutMagnet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ea5d25/32.png) [@NutMagnet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NutMagnet)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-clockwise-and-counter-clockwise-before-clocks/213119/14 "2003-11-14T11:55:50Z")
No no **croakdale**. It’s anti-clockwise and counter-anti-clockwise. ---
**Author:** ![madline](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e9a140/32.png) [@madline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madline)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-clockwise-and-counter-clockwise-before-clocks/213119/15 "2003-11-14T11:58:52Z")
“Widdershins” is also known as “tuathal”. (sp?) ---
**Author:** ![yoyodyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a9a28c/32.png) [@yoyodyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yoyodyne)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-clockwise-and-counter-clockwise-before-clocks/213119/16 "2003-11-14T16:38:13Z")
“Wax on” and “Wax off” ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-clockwise-and-counter-clockwise-before-clocks/213119/17 "2003-11-14T16:46:13Z")
It’s a trick question. Before clocks, there was no need to turn anything. Then clocks came along, and suddenly the world went turning-mad. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-clockwise-and-counter-clockwise-before-clocks/213119/18 "2003-11-14T17:19:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yoyodyne \* > \*\*“Wax on” and “Wax off” \*\* Bwahahahahahahhaha…::snort::…wipes eyes. Made my day. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Daddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Bruce\_Daddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Daddy)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-clockwise-and-counter-clockwise-before-clocks/213119/19 "2003-11-14T17:35:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Major Feelgud \* > \*\*Turn to your left and turn to your right. \*\* Now stomp 3 times. Now clap your hands. 👏👏👏👏👏👏 . . . . ---
**Author:** ![bughunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/aeb1de/32.png) [@bughunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bughunter)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2003, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-clockwise-and-counter-clockwise-before-clocks/213119/20 "2003-11-14T18:03:47Z")
Howbout “pass the pipe to your left” and “pass the pipe to your right?” Surely, smoking circles are older than clocks… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-clockwise-and-counter-clockwise-before-clocks/213119.md?page=2)