# What were German-Japanese relations post Pearl Harbor till the end of WWII? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 5, 2015, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-german-japanese-relations-post-pearl-harbor-till-the-end-of-wwii/739510 "2015-12-05T14:20:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-german-japanese-relations-post-pearl-harbor-till-the-end-of-wwii/739510/1 "2015-12-05T14:20:47Z")
They must have had diplomatic relations. Both politically and militarily, if the old “enemy of my enemy” didn’t apply there, it never would. Of course the inherent racism and mutual antipathy of both parties was fundamental. But so was National Socialism and Bolshevism. (And, later, Democracy and Bolshevism, of course.) ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-german-japanese-relations-post-pearl-harbor-till-the-end-of-wwii/739510/2 "2015-12-05T14:49:53Z")
There were some exchanges. A force of Uboat called the Monsun Gruppe served in the Indian and Pacific Oceans and caused some anxiety for the Royal Navy. The Battle of Madagascar is the only time that the European Axis and the Japanese fought alongside one another; Vichy troops opposed British landings and a Japanese submarine caused the battleship _Ramallies_ to be badly damage, never fully repaired she was. There were some technical support, the Germans provided the Japaness with an example of their \*Amerika \* Bomber. Also on nuclear research. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-german-japanese-relations-post-pearl-harbor-till-the-end-of-wwii/739510/3 "2015-12-05T15:01:08Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > They must have had diplomatic relations. Both politically and militarily, if the old “enemy of my enemy” didn’t apply there, it never would. > > Of course the inherent racism and mutual antipathy of both parties was fundamental. But so was National Socialism and Bolshevism. (And, later, Democracy and Bolshevism, of course.) They were allies. (See Axis") As such they certainly had full-scale diplomatic missions. The German Ambassador to Japan for most of the war was a former general named Ott. He features prominently in a book I read about the famous spy Richard Sorge, who worked for the USSR. Sorge became such an intimate friend of Ott’s that Ott gave him unsupervised access to his office and to all kinds of privileged information. Sorge’s eventual arrest probably led to Ott’s getting fired. I do not know who his replacement was. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-german-japanese-relations-post-pearl-harbor-till-the-end-of-wwii/739510/4 "2015-12-05T15:06:05Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > There were some technical support, the Germans provided… on nuclear research. Absolutely not. The idea is ridiculous a priori, and is unsupported by a book I read on the subject: _Heisenberg’s War_. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_s\_Son](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@Jim\_s\_Son](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_s_Son)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-german-japanese-relations-post-pearl-harbor-till-the-end-of-wwii/739510/5 "2015-12-05T16:25:56Z")
I know Hitler was impressed by Japan’s military record over the centuries and several days after Pearl Harbor he declared war on America first even though he wasn’t obligated to. Relieved FDR of not having to try to convince America fight Germany and Italy instead of making the Pacific “our war”. Sounds like hair splitting but Great Britain and France didn’t declare on the Soviet Union when they invaded Poland in September 1939, just Germany. The agreements they had with Poland said they would come to their aid if Germany attacked, a Russian attack wasn’t mentioned. Were there any German army officers training Japanese army troops in the 20s and 30s? The German military was drastically reduced by the Treat of Versailles and a whole bunch needed work. I’ve heard of them training Chinese troops where the central government had insurrections with various warlords. But were there German advisors in Japan teaching modern techniques with machine guns, tanks, poison gas? Japan was with the Allies in World War I but felt unduly restricted by the Washington Naval Treaty of 1922. The prevalent political philosophy worldwide was countries got rich with colonies and while Japan had Korea, for them to grow there was China with a huge population, Thailand far away and a bunch of areas controlled by Great Britain, France, Netherlands and United States ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-german-japanese-relations-post-pearl-harbor-till-the-end-of-wwii/739510/6 "2015-12-05T18:22:04Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > Absolutely not. > > The idea is ridiculous a priori, and is unsupported by a book I read on the subject: _Heisenberg’s War_. The Germans attempted to send some uranium oxide to Japan on [U-234](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-234), but the sub surrendered to U.S. forces before delivery. ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-german-japanese-relations-post-pearl-harbor-till-the-end-of-wwii/739510/7 "2015-12-05T20:34:25Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > The Germans attempted to send some uranium oxide to Japan on [U-234](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_submarine_U-234), but the sub surrendered to U.S. forces before delivery. I need to see USN eyewitness primary source documentation to believe there was any uranium on that boat. This is a case where Wiki cites will not do. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-german-japanese-relations-post-pearl-harbor-till-the-end-of-wwii/739510/8 "2015-12-05T20:35:09Z")
Would have been more appropriate to send it on U-235. ---
**Author:** ![IDtenT\_Error](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@IDtenT\_Error](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IDtenT_Error)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-german-japanese-relations-post-pearl-harbor-till-the-end-of-wwii/739510/9 "2015-12-05T21:14:27Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Would have been more appropriate to send it on U-235. Couldn’t. U-235 was sunk a month before then. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-german-japanese-relations-post-pearl-harbor-till-the-end-of-wwii/739510/10 "2015-12-05T21:22:58Z")
Besides that, if the shipment had been done earlier on the other sub it might have produced a critical mass of U-235! :eek: 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-german-japanese-relations-post-pearl-harbor-till-the-end-of-wwii/739510/11 "2015-12-05T21:34:02Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > I need to see USN eyewitness primary source documentation to believe there was any uranium on that boat. > > This is a case where Wiki cites will not do. Don’t know why you’re so concerned about wiki when it cites its sources in in the article, but here; > [@](#): > > After the submarine was moored in Portsmouth, American scientists using Geiger counters confirmed that the boat’s cargo included uranium, and the material was carefully removed. From _[The Japanese Submarine Force and World War II](https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=U2wtWnDBvEgC&pg=PA11&lpg=PA11&dq=The+Japanese+Submarine+Force+and+World+War+II&source=bl&ots=HOcDmN68NA&sig=LFDT1v327frraUqpRA55eHnkR9c&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjYj5rD0MXJAhVG7RQKHZ9vAFkQ6AEIGDAB)_ Speaking of submarines [this book](https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=jWf76qX-0lEC&source=gbs_navlinks_s), _War and Diplomacy Across the Pacific, 1919-1952_ might be just what the OP is after, and has some telling info. Whereas the Anglo-American alliance was sharing nuclear secrets and ULTRA, in 1943 the Germans were worried about supplying Japan with new u-boat plans over [concerns about patents.](https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=jWf76qX-0lEC&dq=german+japan+u-boats+patent&q=patent)There was no equivalent to SHAEF, or anything remotely like it; _“[Admiral] Raeder’s suggestion of January 1941 for some kind of supreme command to co-ordinate allied strategy was ignored, apart from subsequent approaches from the Japanese side in 1942 to send an Imperial delegation to Germany to provide a clearer picture of the deteriorating situation in the Pacific.”_ There is also telling language in a briefing for Grand Admiral Donitz in 1943; _“In all dealings with the Japanese, their mentality must be taken into account. They are very sensitive, sly, clever and adroit at changing tactics, and can only with difficulty overcome a certain sense of suspicion towards the white race, even in their dealings with allies…The arrogance they demonstrated in the first few months…has in the meantime abated. It currently takes the form of…criticisms of our conduct of the war in Europe”_ ---
**Author:** ![bunyupp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@bunyupp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bunyupp)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2015, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-german-japanese-relations-post-pearl-harbor-till-the-end-of-wwii/739510/12 "2015-12-05T22:13:12Z")
You might check out the book [Hitler’s Japanese Confidant](http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Japanese-Confidant-Intelligence-1941-1945/dp/0700611894)\* by Carl Boyd. \*Subtitled _General Ōshima Hiroshi and Magic Intelligence, 1941-1945_ ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-german-japanese-relations-post-pearl-harbor-till-the-end-of-wwii/739510/13 "2015-12-06T01:36:22Z")
I read somewhere that the crewmen of the U-234 chuckled among themselves about the “mislabeling” of those crates of some very heavy unknown substance they were taking to Japan. I think that the thinking among the Germans and Japanese about coming up with atomic weapons only went as far as dirty bombs, no fission weapons. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-german-japanese-relations-post-pearl-harbor-till-the-end-of-wwii/739510/14 "2015-12-06T09:28:28Z")
> [@Ranger\_Jeff](#): > > I think that the thinking among the Germans and Japanese about coming up with atomic weapons only went as far as dirty bombs, no fission weapons. Are you sure? I don’t think anyone realized at the time just how ‘dirty’ nuclear radioactivity was. Even the USA, who had developed the bomb, didn’t – they sent troops onto the test site in New Mexico soon after that explosion, and then soon after Japan’s surrender, they sent officers into Hiroshima & Nagasaki to check out the results. Many of those soldiers subsequently suffered medical problems in later years. And a dirty bomb isn’t that effective a weapon – just tossing nuclear material about, without a nuclear explosion, mostly triggers reactions that cause diseases & premature death, often years later. Not particularly effective if you’re trying to hurt the army that is going to invade yiur island in the next few days. "Dirty’ bombs are effective now as a terror weapon against a civilian population. Because now everyone knows the danger of nuclear radiation, and will over-react and cause panic in the area. In 1945, nobody understood enough to be panicked by such news. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-german-japanese-relations-post-pearl-harbor-till-the-end-of-wwii/739510/15 "2015-12-06T10:36:47Z")
> [@Jim\_s\_Son](#): > > Sounds like hair splitting but Great Britain and France didn’t declare on the Soviet Union when they invaded Poland in September 1939 Was it over when the Allies invaded Poland? > [@](#): > > , just Germany. The agreements they had with Poland said they would come to their aid if Germany attacked, a Russian attack wasn’t mentioned. Oh, nevermind. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-german-japanese-relations-post-pearl-harbor-till-the-end-of-wwii/739510/16 "2015-12-06T11:39:52Z")
> [@Nelson\_Pike](#): > > I need to see USN eyewitness primary source documentation to believe there was any uranium on that boat. You are suspicious because ? Because japan had no need for material to make watch hands glow in the dark ? indeed they did, and they would have made many glow in the dark watch hands from it. Deutchland had not enriched uranium ore, and so they could only send natural uranium … ---
**Author:** ![Nelson\_Pike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Nelson\_Pike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nelson_Pike)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-german-japanese-relations-post-pearl-harbor-till-the-end-of-wwii/739510/17 "2015-12-06T16:12:46Z")
> [@Isilder](#): > > You are suspicious because ? Because japan had no need for material to make watch hands glow in the dark ? indeed they did, and they would have made many glow in the dark watch hands from it. > Deutchland had not enriched uranium ore, and so they could only send natural uranium … I am suspicious because: (1) Germany would not have wanted to assist any other country, not even an ally, in obtaining nuclear weapons, and (2) Germany needed literally every gram of uranium in its possession for its own nuclear weapon program. As for glowing watches I have always heard that the illuminating element was radium. ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2015, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-german-japanese-relations-post-pearl-harbor-till-the-end-of-wwii/739510/18 "2015-12-06T19:50:11Z")
Since I’ve commented at some length on the U-234 story on the boards in years past, starting from a position of some scepticism given the then available evidence, I suppose I should try to lay that whole side issue to rest. To quote from myself in [this old thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=322110), largely based on Joseph Scalia’s recommendable book _Germany’s Last Mission to Japan_: > [@](#): > > The mission grew out of the undertaking between Germany and Japan, formalised in the likes of the Tripartite Pact in 1940, to pool the results of their military research. In practice, this proved a rather complicated affair even in the early stages of the war. There was a reluctance on both sides to reveal their best stuff, though they were able to gradually build up some trust over time. Another obstacle was the sheer difficulty of transferring men, plans and equipment halfway round the globe in the face of Allied forces. Submarines were a recourse of last resort. By the time U-234’s specific mission was planned there was no great expectation that it would be able to get through. Amongst other factors, Johann Fehler was hardly either the best trained or the most competent captain at Doenitz’s disposal. > In this sort of context, it’s not obvious that the uranium was an especially important part of the cargo. There was a lot of other stuff on board and all of that can be accounted for in ways that don’t bear on nuclear research. Nor were any of the passengers on board for such a reason. There’s even a somewhat mundane reason why uranium was attractive as a part of the shipment: because of contraints of space and ballast, especially dense material and equipment was preferred. > So why was the uranium on board? Scalia has identified a series of requests, starting in 1943, from Tokyo asking that the Germans send them uranium ore. While initially disguised with other explanations, the reason they wanted it was indeed for their bomb research. For the Japanese programmes had a huge problem: they didn’t know of any natural uranium deposits, either in Japan or in their conquered territories. They did eventually find ways around this scarcity, notably by locating a source in Korea and mining that. But even just finding enough uranium to experiment on, never mind solving the problem of getting sufficient to actually process for a reactor or bomb, remained a headache for them until the end. By contrast, uranium was one of the resources that the Germans had a good supply of. By the end of 1943 they’d agreed to send 1000 kg. Some of this was sent in earlier missions and it may even be that some got through. > Scalia also makes the interesting point that it wasn’t even as if the German nuclear programmes were the main call on their supply. Various armament projects were using it, in much the same way that it’s used in modern shells etc. These applications called for the ore to be refined into uranium oxide and then processed into metallic uranium plates. By the last stages of the war, Allied bombing had managed to disrupt this last industrial step and the production of metallic uranium had ground to a halt. It may be that what went on U-234 was redirected from the, now surplus, supply for such production. > Rather than any sort of enriched material for immediate incorporation into any sort of bomb, what was shipped was thus probably uranium oxide intended for use in Japanese research. With the Japanese project halted by this stage by Allied bombing, it’s not even as if they needed that. But there’s no reason to suppose that Tokyo had told Berlin that their research had stopped. So the uranium was on board as part of Japanese requests relating to bomb research, but it’s not obvious that Berlin ever realised this. The simple answer to the OP’s question is that they had full diplomatic relations, plus sought to help each other wherever it was in their mutual interest. Prior to Operation Barbarossa in 1941, it was fairly easy for them to pass materials between themselves. But the geographic distances then made anything largely impractical once the route through the USSR was blocked.