# What were the first and second reichs? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 3, 2005, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-and-second-reichs/292749 "2005-03-03T13:36:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Khadaji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Khadaji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khadaji)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-and-second-reichs/292749/1 "2005-03-03T13:36:03Z")
We have all heard of the third Reich. What were the first and second reichs. I did a search, but was told that > [@](#): > > The following words are either very common, too long, or too short and were not included in your search: second The search for just the word Reich returned too many to read. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-and-second-reichs/292749/2 "2005-03-03T13:42:19Z")
The first German “Reich,” IIRC, was supposedly Charlemagne’s kingdom. Being Frankish, he was counted as “German.” The second, IIRC, was Bismarck’s Germany. Or was it the Holy Roman Empire? Or was the HRE considered a continuation of Charlemagne’s “Reich”? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-and-second-reichs/292749/3 "2005-03-03T13:43:56Z")
[This](http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=4564) appears to answer your question. (Google tip: I searched on **“first reich” “second reich”** ) ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-and-second-reichs/292749/4 "2005-03-03T13:56:05Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > [This](http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=4564) appears to answer your question. (Google tip: I searched on **“first reich” “second reich”** ) You appear to have misused the tag. 😉 Here’s a link that works: [link](http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=4564) ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-and-second-reichs/292749/5 "2005-03-03T14:00:21Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > [This](http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=4564) appears to answer your question. (Google tip: I searched on **“first reich” “second reich”** ) [Fixed link](http://www.axishistory.com/index.php?id=4564) (You left a quite mark in) The First Reich was the Holy Roman Empire, which began with the crowning of Charlemagne in 800 AD, and which nominally lasted until 1806. The Second Reich was the German Empire following the unification of Germany under Prussian leadership in 1871, until the abdication of Emperor Wilhelm II in 1919. ---
**Author:** ![Meurglys](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/258eb7/32.png) [@Meurglys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meurglys)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-and-second-reichs/292749/6 "2005-03-03T14:22:08Z")
> [@Colibri](#): > > The First Reich was the Holy Roman Empire, which began with the crowning of Charlemagne in 800 AD, and which nominally lasted until 1806. So there had already been one ‘thousand year Reich’ already… ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-and-second-reichs/292749/7 "2005-03-03T14:32:44Z")
A note on the usage of these terms: The Holy Roman Empire was, _of course_, not referred to as the First Reich at the time. Neither was the term Second Reich in use for the 1871-1918 empire (which was referred to as _Deutsches Reich_, nowadays mostly as the _Kaiserreich_ as strictly speaking _Deutsches Reich_ was the state’s name from 1871 to 1943). Nowadays the designations First Reich and Second Reich are _not_ in use in Germany, mainly because the use of these terms would support the notion that made the Nazis adopt the term Third Reich, i.e. legitimacy as a third ‘unification’. I’d look askance at another German who’d refer to First and Second Reichs. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-and-second-reichs/292749/8 "2005-03-03T14:34:20Z")
> [@Meurglys](#): > > So there had already been one ‘thousand year Reich’ already… Not really, since through most of its history the HRE had little actual power. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2005, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-and-second-reichs/292749/9 "2005-03-03T18:06:10Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > Not really, since through most of its history the HRE had little actual power. Voltaire apparently said once that the Holy Roman Empire was “Niether Holy, nor Roman, nor an empire” and he was quite right. ---
**Author:** ![Askance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/askance/32/8281_2.png) [@Askance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askance)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2005, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-and-second-reichs/292749/10 "2005-03-04T00:27:08Z")
> [@tschild](#): > > I’d look askance Here I am; look all you like!