# What were the first clues that there was no god? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 8, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112 "2010-09-08T23:28:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/1 "2010-09-08T23:28:07Z")
This is a two-pronged question: 1. On a historical level, at what time do you think the clues appeared in the human knowledge base, and at what time it would be reasonable to expect people to pick up on the clues? 2. On a personal level, what where the first and most important clues to you? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/2 "2010-09-08T23:39:53Z")
Six fuckig years and not one damn pony! ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/3 "2010-09-08T23:45:20Z")
My guess would be about 5sec after the first guy told the second guy about it, paused for a second, then started laughing. Og - “Where did the world come from?” Ug - “There is a magical spirit living in the sky that created it all and loves us, and all he asks is that we don’t eat pork.” Og - “Seriously?” Ug - “ha, no, but you totally fell for it.” That’s I imagine it goes. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/4 "2010-09-08T23:57:43Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > 1. On a historical level, at what time do you think the clues appeared in the human knowledge base, and at what time it would be reasonable to expect people to pick up on the clues? The problem with that question is that belief in “God”, as opposed to many gods is relatively recent. > [@Stoneburg](#): > > 1. On a personal level, what where the first and most important clues to you? Pretty much a growing awareness that there just wasn’t any evidence for any of the believers’ claims, and no evidence to use to choose which of the many, many mutually exclusive religions out there is the true one. Which together implies that none of them are. And also watching the behavior of those believers destroy their own claims that believing in God somehow made you moral. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2010, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/5 "2010-09-08T23:58:08Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > This is a two-pronged question: > > 1. On a historical level, at what time do you think the clues appeared in the human knowledge base, and at what time it would be reasonable to expect people to pick up on the clues? Clues that there was no god? Do you mean no gods at _all_, or not _this_ or _that_ specific god? Because those would have different answers. There _still_ isn’t actually evidence against a non-interventionist never-interventionist non-creator non-omnimax god. And I would say that the first evidence against specific gods varied wildly; typically depending on what they claimed about the world. There were probably some gods that were abandoned a long, long time ago because they failed to defend their chosen tribe sufficiently against their enemies. > [@Stoneburg](#): > > 1. On a personal level, what where the first and most important clues to you? None of it ever worked, and the logic never -_ever_- made sense. If prayer _had_ worked, I’d be a theist. ---
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/6 "2010-09-09T00:03:27Z")
If the word “god” in the OP is confusing, replace it with “supernatural being” or whatever you prefer, basically the usual center of religions. Doesn’t have to be a specific religion, I’m pretty sure they’re all wrong. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/7 "2010-09-09T00:27:58Z")
> [@](#): > > 1. On a historical level, at what time do you think the clues appeared in the human knowledge base, and at what time it would be reasonable to expect people to pick up on the clues? Clues that there was no god, or clues that there might not be a god? Because, afaik, it hasn’t been scientifically concluded even today that god doesn’t exist…merely that there is no evidence that there is a god or gods or other supernatural beings. Absence of evidence not being evidence of absence, and all that. Assuming you mean when did people first start jibbing to the fact that there might not be a god…well, I think atheism in one form or another goes back for thousands of years, though obviously it was never a majority thought…least, not in any culture I’m aware of. But I’d have to say that sometime in the age of reason did people really start to question whether or not god really existed from the perspective of rational thought and not simply the same sorts of blind assertions that the folks advocating for a super natural being were using. > [@](#): > > 1. On a personal level, what where the first and most important clues to you? Well, it was a progression with me. I was raised a Catholic (being hispanic it’s hard to avoid a Catholic upbringing), but I remember one time at my grandmothers house. A lot of my VERY religious aunts, uncles, cousins and such were discussing, of all things, evolution, and I remember being interested in the discussion, since I had read some about it and it seemed very natural and plausible to me. I remember one of my aunts in particular talking about evolution, and what she was saying was completely wrong. I attempted to correct her, and (being a hispanic family) a ‘discussion’ ensued in which there was much screaming, shouting and general mayhem. Basically every one of my family were either completely against me (these were adults, mind, and I was maybe 11 or 12) or were completely staying out of the discussion, and in the end several of my aunts resorted to tears and weeping, and one of my uncles bopped me upside the head to shut me up…and at that point I realized that this whole Catholic/God thingy may not have much of a leg to stand on if adults had to resort to such tactics in a discussion with a bright (and handsome of course) child who had only a rudimentary knowledge of the subject (I DID have many years of Catholic school, so knew a bit more about the bible than seemingly many of my family did, even though they were extremely religious). That memory has always stuck, and I think it was at that point that I started the journey away from religion. There were a lot of other events (learning some history about the Church, for instance, was a major factor), but that one always sticks out. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Weedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/weedy/32/301_2.png) [@Weedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weedy)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/8 "2010-09-09T02:00:23Z")
Historically, I have no idea, but I suspect atheism began to become more prevalent as science took off. Once science can start to explain the world around you, you have less need for supernatural explanations. For me personally, the first time I remember was in Sunday School, around age 9-10. I grew up Catholic, in the 70s, when parts of the Catholic church were quite progressive. During the sermon, us kids would get taken out for a some age-appropriate group discussion. We were allowed to question and discuss very freely, and the more we discussed it, the less sense it made. One time I asked why God went to the bother of putting us on earth, and having us and die and suffer and all that. If there was something he wanted us to know or experience, why couldn’t he just insert it straight into our brains? The discussion leader had no answer for that, but one of the other kids in the group said: “It’s like when you play DnD. The DM can describe what’s happening, but it would have a lot more impact if he actually put you in a dank, smelly dungeon with a purple worm coming at you.” The image of God as a sadistic DM was hard to reconcile with the loving saviour version we were being taught. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/9 "2010-09-09T02:18:23Z")
Give us an idea of what you’re looking for, here… What are some of the current clues that there’s no god? ---
**Author:** ![Noel\_Prosequi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b19c9b/32.png) [@Noel\_Prosequi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noel_Prosequi)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/10 "2010-09-09T02:50:48Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Six fuckig years and not one damn pony! Ah! You clearly failed to obtain the necessary insight to work around this problem. As Emo Phillips says: When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised God doesn’t work that way, so I stole one and prayed for forgiveness. :D:D:D ---
**Author:** ![godix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/278dde/32.png) [@godix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godix)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/11 "2010-09-09T02:53:59Z")
I’m sure there were atheists and agnostics at any point in human history, but I suspect it got a lot more common after the methodology of scientific inquiry was developed and accepted. Which I suppose puts it back to at least the ancient Greeks if not earlier. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/12 "2010-09-09T05:08:24Z")
1. Some time between Newton and Darwin. Closer to Darwin. 2. Fifth Grade Catholic School. God’s decisions didn’t make sense, and didn’t seem fair. The nuns were not amused. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/13 "2010-09-09T05:14:56Z")
As far as evolution is concerned, the default was atheism. Of all the bazillion of species that have ever existed, I’m quite sure that humans are the only who have even considered the possibility of a divinity. So the question should be: When was the first notion that there might be a god? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/14 "2010-09-09T05:17:03Z")
Probably one of the earlier fairly unambiguous items of evidence would have been watching the gods morph over time according to political needs. For example, it seems likely that the Greek pantheon used to be ruled by Cronus, not Zeus; the ancient Sumerian pantheon used to be ruled by Enki, not Marduk; and the ancient Egyptian pantheon was ruled by Horus, not Ra. If you look over the history of any god, you’ll see many changes to who he is and where he fits in the hierarchy of gods. It’s fairly likely that a lot of these changes were political, based on which city took prominence, which son of the king became the new king, who’d conquered your kingdom, what conqueror had been thrown out of the kingdom, etc. It would be fairly apparent to anyone with a critical eye during one of these phases – particularly if they had any idea of older legends of the gods – that humans were creating a history of the gods out of wholecloth. Since the gods didn’t proceed on to destroy towns and farms for such insolence, it’s a decent bet that if there were gods, they weren’t the ones being spoken of. And if there were real gods anything like the gods being paraded about, they’d certainly get pissed by humanity worshiping all these made-up gods. Since they didn’t, they either didn’t care about humanity, or didn’t exist. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/15 "2010-09-09T05:30:55Z")
I think it started with gods that interact with man. The first gods were probably the unpredictable spirits of nature that didn’t care about humans at all, like the rain god, who decided when to drench people for totally selfish reasons. Then some guy thought up the idea that you could negotiate with a god to get it to act in your favor, or offend it and have your picnic spoiled. It was that god, that was first disbelieved. ---
**Author:** ![FuzzyOgre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@FuzzyOgre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FuzzyOgre)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/16 "2010-09-09T05:51:49Z")
There were some ancient Greek philosophers that were Atheistic and so were some of the Romans. Nowadays you hear a lot about “The New Atheists”, supposedly atheists strident and harsh in their criticisms. But that sort of attitude goes way back. This is a favourite poem of mine. Hap - Thomas Hardy - 1866 If but some vengeful god would call to me From up the sky, and laugh: “Thou suffering thing, Know that thy sorrow is my ecstasy, That thy love’s loss is my hate’s profiting!” Then would I bear, and clench myself, and die, Steeled by the sense of ire unmerited; Half-eased, too, that a Powerfuller than I Had willed and meted me the tears I shed. But not so. How arrives it joy lies slain, And why unblooms the best hope ever sown? —Crass Casualty obstructs the sun and rain, And dicing Time for gladness casts a moan…. These purblind Doomsters had as readily strown Blisses about my pilgrimage as pain. It is the unwillingness of faith holders to examine secular history that causes them to make claims of “New Atheism”. Democritus might be said to be an ancient atheist. Quoting wikipedia… > [@](#): > > His work on nature is known through citations of his books on the subjects, On the Nature of Man, On Flesh (two books), On Mind, On the Senses, On Flavors, On Colors, Causes concerned with Seeds and Plants and Fruits, and Causes concerned with Animals (three books). He spent much of his life experimenting with and examining plants and minerals, and wrote at length on many scientific topics. Democritus thought that the first humans lived an anarchic and animal sort of life, going out to forage individually and living off the most palatable herbs and the fruit which grew wild on the trees. They were driven together into societies for fear of wild animals, he said. He believed that these early people had no language, but that they gradually began to articulate their expressions, establishing symbols for every sort of object, and in this manner came to understand each other. He says that the earliest men lived laboriously, having none of the utilities of life; clothing, houses, fire, domestication, and farming were unknown to them. Democritus presents the early period of mankind as one of learning by trial and error, and says that each step slowly lead to more discoveries; they took refuge in the caves in winter, stored fruits that could be preserved, and through reason and keenness of mind came to build upon each new idea. > > Democritus held that the Earth was round, and stated that originally the universe was composed of nothing but tiny atoms churning in chaos, until they collided together to form larger units—including the earth and everything on it. He surmised that there are many worlds, some growing, some decaying; some with no sun or moon, some with several. He held that every world has a beginning and an end, and that a world could be destroyed by collision with another world. His cosmology can be summarized with assistance from Shelley: Worlds rolling over worlds; From creation to decay; Like the bubbles on a river; Sparkling, bursting, borne away. Certainly it looks like he attributes no gifts of any gods as enabling human society. ---
**Author:** ![Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superfluous_Parentheses)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/17 "2010-09-09T16:34:18Z")
> [@FuzzyOgre](#): > > There were some ancient Greek philosophers that were Atheistic and so were some of the Romans. > > Nowadays you hear a lot about “The New Atheists”, supposedly atheists strident and harsh in their criticisms. But that sort of attitude goes way back. Indeed. I’m just reading “[Some Mistakes of Moses (1879)](http://www.archive.org/stream/somemistakesmose00ingeuoft#page/n7/mode/2up)” by Robert G. Ingersoll. It’s hilariously insulting. > [@](#): > > As long as people want popes, plenty of hypocrites will be > found to take the place. And as long as labor > fatigues, there will be found a good many men willing > to preach once a week, if other folks will work > and give them bread. > > […] > > In the olden time these theological people > who quartered themselves upon the honest and > industrious, were called soothsayers, seers, charmers, > prophets, enchanters, sorcerers, wizards, astrologers, > and impostors, but now, they are known as clergymen. And then, there’s this passage that deals with the “strident and harsh” allegations directly: > [@](#): > > I am told by the clergy that I ought not to attack > the bible ; that I am leading thousands to perdition > and rendering certain the damnation of my own soul. > They have had the kindness to advise me that, if my > object is to make converts, I am pursuing the wrong > course. They tell me to use gentler expressions, > and more cunning words. Do they really wish > me to make more converts? If their advice is > honest, they are traitors to their trust. If their advice > is not honest, then they are unfair with me. > Certainly they should wish me to pursue the course > that will make the fewest converts, and yet they pretend > to tell me how my influence could be increased. > It may be, that upon this principle John Bright > advises America to adopt free trade, so that our > country can become a successful rival of Great Britain. > Sometimes I think that even ministers are not entirely candid. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/18 "2010-09-09T17:09:02Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > This is a two-pronged question: > > 1. On a historical level, at what time do you think the clues appeared in the human knowledge base, and at what time it would be reasonable to expect people to pick up on the clues? I’d say the first time two civilizations interacted and they had vastly different Gods (not, for example, like when the Romans ‘adopted’ the Greek Gods, for instance). > [@Stoneburg](#): > > 1. On a personal level, what where the first and most important clues to you? Personally, I would say that there is no _one_ religion worshipping the “God” that has stuck around since the beginning of human existence (say prehistoric times). That and the evolution of God and what he/she/it was responsible for keeps pace with the advancement of human thought. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/19 "2010-09-09T18:54:51Z")
1. God or gods is a concept of man’s that has never caught on for 100% of mankind. Your question assumes that men have always believed and then started disbelieving at some point. God is a superstition that has evolved over time and is still evolving. The clues about those different beliefs reality have changed as well. 2. The plethora of different beliefs and the adamance of those professing them. Somebody was flat out lying, that much was obvious,and most likely over 99% were lying considering how they all . Maybe that last 1% was lying too. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/20 "2010-09-09T19:01:34Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > If the word “god” in the OP is confusing, replace it with “supernatural being” or whatever you prefer, basically the usual center of religions. Doesn’t have to be a specific religion, I’m pretty sure they’re all wrong. The first instant that some dude in some tribe thought up a diety, the rest of the world was atheistic to that specific diety (at least in the apatheistic sense). So each individual diety was massively disbelieved from the get-go and had to claw its way out of that hole. If you’re wondering about the point when superstition in general began to look less appealing, I would say that it almost certainly directly correlates to the advancement of rational thought and scientific explanations in an area. Until somebody considers how lightning might happen _without_ the intervention of the supernatural, the supernatural will remain the obvious explanation. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112.md?page=2)