# What were the first clues that there was no god? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 8, 2010, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112 "2010-09-08T23:28:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Stoneburg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@Stoneburg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoneburg)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/21 "2010-09-09T21:39:28Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Give us an idea of what you’re looking for, here… What are some of the current clues that there’s no god? I don’t usually post questions that I have the “correct” answer to, I mean really, what would be the point? I’m not well versed in history, but for example I’d say that once Newtons ideas where well known there would be some significant clues in circulation. I guess one could argue that once the world was discovered to be a sphere (ancient greece?) that should be a big clue that at least some religions got it wrong. But I like the idea of multiple perspectives and answers to this, not just scientific history but cultural or political as well. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/22 "2010-09-09T23:39:27Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > I’m not well versed in history, but for example I’d say that once Newtons ideas where well known there would be some significant clues in circulation. How so? Scientists of and near Newton’s day didn’t see any conflict between science and the existence of God—if anything, they thought that the existence of an orderly, explainable universe pointed to a Creator. The Wikipedia article on [Isaac Newton’s religious views](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Newton's_religious_views) quotes him as saying [QUOTE=Isaac Newton] Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion. God governs all things and knows all that is or can be done. This most beautiful system of the sun, planets, and comets, could only proceed from the counsel and dominion of an intelligent Being. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/23 "2010-09-10T15:48:21Z")
I’d actually answer the OP’s question with a question. What were the first clues that there was a god? The simple answer is, there has never been any clues that there was a god. There has never been any verifiable proof of a divinity, period. For Christianity at least, the whole point is _faith_ anyway. I’ve never understood why some Christians are obsessed with finding “proof” of God, or get so angry when someone says something “disproves” God. Christianity makes it very clear that belief is faith based, faith means there can never be any “proof.” If God lived on a mountain top in Greece faith wouldn’t exist, it’d just be accepted fact. Science can’t **ever** prove God doesn’t exist. There was some drama recently concerning Stephen Hawking’s new book. All Hawking has done is come up with a plausible concept as to how the _big bang_ could have been started entirely on its own, without any “outside” interference. From there, all the planets and stars and life just came about because of the trillions of interactions between all of the elements spread apart by the big bang. The force of gravity caused dust to coalesce into stars and some of it into planets orbiting those stars and some of it into configurations that could support complex life. I don’t have any problem with that, and think it’s a plausible explanation. Any smart Christian can easily reconcile that with God, though. ---
**Author:** ![Uzi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/91b2a8/32.png) [@Uzi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uzi)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/24 "2010-09-10T17:52:19Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > 1. On a personal level, what where the first and most important clues to you? The first time I read a fantasy book probably made me an atheist. About grade 3-4. Not having a religious upbringing, I read this before any ‘real’ religious book. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/25 "2010-09-10T18:24:02Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > This is a two-pronged question: > > 1. On a historical level, at what time do you think the clues appeared in the human knowledge base, and at what time it would be reasonable to expect people to pick up on the clues? Probably from the first time that someone said “There is a god” and someone else said “Cite?”. 😃 Seriously, though…I would imagine that people questioned the existence of a god from the moment they were told about it. That’s why religions are so adamant that you give them your children for brainwashing at an early age. > [@](#): > > 1. On a personal level, what where the first and most important clues to you? I was about 10. I was a devout Christian, but there were some things that confused me. No one could or would answer my questions, so I started trying to find out the answers for myself. By the time I was about 16 or so, I had learned conclusively that religion is a lie from start to finish, nothing more than a massive con game. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/26 "2010-09-10T18:34:42Z")
For Jeffy from [_the Family Circus_](http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/6186/familycircus0403.jpg), this was the first clue ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/27 "2010-09-10T18:47:12Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I’d actually answer the OP’s question with a question. > > What were the first clues that there was a god? > > The simple answer is, there has never been any clues that there was a god. There has never been any verifiable proof of a divinity, period. Nonsense. Lightning was a ‘clue’ that there was a god, if you want to call such clear proof a “clue”. It was inexplicable and creating it was _certainly_ beyond the ability of anything mankind could imagine. It was absurdly powerful and obviously targeted attack from the sky - seriously man, somebody’s up there, and they’re _pissed_. Obviously once alternate explanations for these sorts of things were figured out this stopped applying, but until then “goddidit” was actually the most plausible explanation available. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/28 "2010-09-10T20:38:00Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > > I’d actually answer the OP’s question with a question. > > > > What were the first clues that there was a god? > > > > The simple answer is, there has never been any clues that there was a god. There has never been any verifiable proof of a divinity, period. > > Nonsense. Lightning was a ‘clue’ that there was a god, if you want to call such clear proof a “clue”. It was inexplicable and creating it was _certainly_ beyond the ability of anything mankind could imagine. It was absurdly powerful and obviously targeted attack from the sky - seriously man, somebody’s up there, and they’re _pissed_. > > Obviously once alternate explanations for these sorts of things were figured out this stopped applying, but until then “goddidit” was actually the most plausible explanation available. Natural phenomena were never proof of a god, they were proof that smart humans were good at creating myths and legends to explain things. And hey, the dude that knows all the myths and legends coincidentally was usually pretty important in society and held a position of power and prestige, sometimes even greater than the secular leadership of the tribe/group/society/city-state/whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/29 "2010-09-10T21:50:29Z")
> [@Meatros](#): > > I’d say the first time two civilizations interacted and they had vastly different Gods (not, for example, like when the Romans ‘adopted’ the Greek Gods, for instance). Not really. Polytheists have no problem believing in (if not worshiping) other gods. Alexander the Great, who was such a believer he thought himself descended from gods, wed a Persian princess in her religion. Remember the First Commandment doesn’t deny the existence of other Gods, but only forbids them being worshiped (or worshiped before the Hebrew god.) Only monotheists necessarily reject the existence of other gods. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/30 "2010-09-10T21:56:14Z")
1. Assuming that the God in question is the god of the group or tribe, not some other tribe’s god: As soon as people could apply logic to religion. Remember Socrates was accused of atheism. Finding secular explanations for physical events which were supposedly divinely inspired helped, as did showing Biblical history was wrong. But logic was primary. Of course, being able to utter this thought without being killed helped a lot. 1. When I read in the introduction to the Bible used for senior English about the various authors who wrote the Bible. I didn’t care much before then, but more or less believed, and assumed that the Mosaic authorship I learned in Hebrew School was widely accepted. The moment I had a glimmer otherwise, the whole thing fell apart. Of course I never believed in the Jesus God from the very beginning. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/31 "2010-09-10T22:17:53Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > [@begbert2](#): > > > > Nonsense. Lightning was a ‘clue’ that there was a god, if you want to call such clear proof a “clue”. It was inexplicable and creating it was _certainly_ beyond the ability of anything mankind could imagine. It was absurdly powerful and obviously targeted attack from the sky - seriously man, somebody’s up there, and they’re _pissed_. > > > > Obviously once alternate explanations for these sorts of things were figured out this stopped applying, but until then “goddidit” was actually the most plausible explanation available. > > Natural phenomena were never proof of a god, they were proof that smart humans were good at creating myths and legends to explain things. And hey, the dude that knows all the myths and legends coincidentally was usually pretty important in society and held a position of power and prestige, sometimes even greater than the secular leadership of the tribe/group/society/city-state/whatever. Stop wiggling - you asked for a clue, and lighting is a pretty darned overt clue. One that is pretty good proof of the existence of powerful supernatural entities (in the usual, non-formal-logical sense of the word), at least until better information about the phenomena is collected. Seriously, if you want to play this game, then _atoms_ are a myth. They’re just one that fits all the available evidence really well, just like lightning did when there was less evidence around to be had. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2010, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/32 "2010-09-10T23:59:06Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > > Natural phenomena were never proof of a god, they were proof that smart humans were good at creating myths and legends to explain things. And hey, the dude that knows all the myths and legends coincidentally was usually pretty important in society and held a position of power and prestige, sometimes even greater than the secular leadership of the tribe/group/society/city-state/whatever. > > Stop wiggling - you asked for a clue, and lighting is a pretty darned overt clue. One that is pretty good proof of the existence of powerful supernatural entities (in the usual, non-formal-logical sense of the word), at least until better information about the phenomena is collected. > > Seriously, if you want to play this game, then _atoms_ are a myth. They’re just one that fits all the available evidence really well, just like lightning did when there was less evidence around to be had. Your posts have devolved into nonsense, keep me updated if you decide to turn it the other way. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/33 "2010-09-11T00:02:37Z")
I accept your concession. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/34 "2010-09-11T02:40:35Z")
Skeptics of the use of god or myths to explain things existed for as far back as we have writings. There was [Epicurus](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicurus) (341 BCE – 270 BCE) and [Protagoras](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protagoras) (ca. 490– 420 BCE), to name two. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/35 "2010-09-11T17:33:35Z")
The question is complex, ambiguous and has conflicting answers but … > [@Meatros](#): > > I’d say the first time two civilizations interacted and they had vastly different Gods (not, for example, like when the Romans ‘adopted’ the Greek Gods, for instance). I think this is one key answer. I’m not even sure the Gods had to be vastly different; just the fact “our” God was defeated by another might begin a cycle of doubt. Julian Jaynes’ thoughts are worth reading. His book [contains a provocative image](http://www.gothicimage.co.uk/books/images/symblands2.jpg) of a Mesopotamian God deserting his people in a time of conquest. This was about the same time that _ludlul bel nemeqi_ was written, sometimes considered a source of the _Book of Job_. ---
**Author:** ![Mozart1220](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Mozart1220](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mozart1220)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/36 "2010-09-11T18:31:47Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > > Natural phenomena were never proof of a god, they were proof that smart humans were good at creating myths and legends to explain things. And hey, the dude that knows all the myths and legends coincidentally was usually pretty important in society and held a position of power and prestige, sometimes even greater than the secular leadership of the tribe/group/society/city-state/whatever. > > Stop wiggling - you asked for a clue, and lighting is a pretty darned overt clue. One that is pretty good proof of the existence of powerful supernatural entities (in the usual, non-formal-logical sense of the word), at least until better information about the phenomena is collected. > > Seriously, if you want to play this game, then _atoms_ are a myth. They’re just one that fits all the available evidence really well, just like lightning did when there was less evidence around to be had. Atoms have been proven to exist. Ask the Japanese. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2010, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/37 "2010-09-12T13:07:53Z")
I think the first clue that gods don’t exist was when someone said, “Gods don’t exist!”… and he wasn’t immediately struck by lightning. ---
**Author:** ![Mozart1220](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Mozart1220](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mozart1220)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2010, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/38 "2010-09-12T13:13:45Z")
> [@Stoneburg](#): > > This is a two-pronged question: > > 1. On a historical level, at what time do you think the clues appeared in the human knowledge base, and at what time it would be reasonable to expect people to pick up on the clues? > > 2. On a personal level, what where the first and most important clues to you? 1. The lack of any evidence whatsoever would have been a hint. 2. I was never much of a believer, but the “deep field” image from Hubble showing thousands of galaxies in a tiny point of the sky did it for me. It might not be proff of NO God of any kind, but it proved that whoever wrote the Bible had no clue of what the real universe was all about. The universe is not only larger and stranger than we imagine, but also than we CAN imagine. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2010, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/39 "2010-09-12T17:30:03Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > 1. Some time between Newton and Darwin. Closer to Darwin. Newton was fanatically religious. Darwin period. For the first time there was a plausible explanation for the existence of different species outside of a creator. Hence a clear contradiction of the bible, presumably the only serious account of creation previously known to the society in which Darwin operated . ---
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2010, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112/40 "2010-09-12T19:21:41Z")
Just about everything religion has said about life the universe and everything has been shown to be untrue. While at the same time, especially since Darwin, the predictions made by science have proven to be much closer to the mark. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-the-first-clues-that-there-was-no-god/553112.md?page=1)