# What were you THINKING? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 13, 2023, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532 "2023-10-13T19:36:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/521 "2023-12-30T21:09:36Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > In this case, Hamas chooses to operate out of civilian areas. It’s predictable that doing so will result in the death of children. Hamas shares responsibility for those deaths. IDF chooses to attack Hamas in those civilian areas. It’s predictable that doing so will result in the death of children. IDF shares responsibility for those deaths. Hamas should stop acting in a way that results in kids dying. IDF should stop acting in a way that results in kids dying. Neither party is justified in blaming the other party until they stop making decisions that result in those deaths themselves. The problem with this is that if the IDF ceases targetting Hamas when Hamas hides behind civilians, I don’t see how the IDF can target Hamas _at all_. Whichnis exactly _why_ Hamas behaves in this way. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/522 "2023-12-30T21:10:02Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > As for why I don’t believe that point has been reached? Simple - because I consider the alternnative. Is there a point between “all Palestinian children dead” and where we are now where you’d say “Too much, stop”? Where would that point be? I understand what you’re saying about “consider the alternative.” As far as I can tell, almost _any_ alternative–including the one where Hamas thinks they got away with it–is still better than the atrocities we’re seeing now. It’d be _really really bad_ for Hamas to think that–but what’s happening now is unimaginably bad. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/523 "2023-12-30T21:11:41Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > The problem with this is that if the IDF ceases targetting Hamas when Hamas hides behind civilians, I don’t see how the IDF can target Hamas _at all_. IDF could target them with 10% of the Hamas-kill-rate of their current methodology. Go much, much more targeted, forgoing most of their opportunities to kill Hamas, and only taking the opportunities where they could get them with a much lower risk of civilian casualties. I know it’d make the IDF less effective. Given Hamas’s brutal tactics, that’s the only morally defensible approach. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/524 "2023-12-30T21:18:08Z")
So you would teach Hamas that using civilians as human shields is effective and they should do it even more, then. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/525 "2023-12-30T21:19:03Z")
Hey you sociopathic fuckwit, piss off. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/526 "2023-12-30T21:19:27Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Is there a point between “all Palestinian children dead” and where we are now where you’d say “Too much, stop”? Where would that point be? Yes, absolutely. Not being a military expert, I don’t think I can describe it to you in a way that is meaningful. Certainly not in terms of “hOw MaNy DeAd KiDs LaWl” as some have asked. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I understand what you’re saying about “consider the alternative.” As far as I can tell, almost _any_ alternative–including the one where Hamas thinks they got away with it–is still better than the atrocities we’re seeing now. It’d be _really really bad_ for Hamas to think that–but what’s happening now is unimaginably bad. If it was just about what Hamas thinks, that would be one thing. If we could trick Hamas fighters into thinking they’ve won and they can all go to Qatar and party for the rest of their lives, I’d support that effort. The problem is what Hamas would be able to practically accomplish following this. They would rearm and refortify and eventually attack Israel again, and then we would be right where we were on Oct 8, forced to start all over again with an extremely costly assault to remove them. I don’t see a way to remove Hamas without armed force, and I don’t see a way to remove Hamas with significantly less armed force than is currently being used. If that is the case, then stopping the war would just reset progress back to 0 and mean that next time this happens Israel has to enter grinding urban combat for months, killing thousands of Palestinians, just to get _here_; and then we’d need to keep going anyways (assuming we didn’t give up again and kill all those Palestinians for nothing, too). ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/527 "2023-12-30T21:24:19Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > IDF could target them with 10% of the Hamas-kill-rate of their current methodology. Go much, much more targeted, forgoing most of their opportunities to kill Hamas, and only taking the opportunities where they could get them with a much lower risk of civilian casualties. > > I know it’d make the IDF less effective. Given Hamas’s brutal tactics, that’s the only morally defensible approach. Again, I am not a military expert, but my layman understanding is that applying 10% of the military force doesn’t necessarily mean you will proceed at 10% the pace - it could mean that you fail to advance _at all_, because you haven’t reached the critical threshold that causes your opponent’s supply to break. ---
**Author:** ![Baker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bb73d2/32.png) [@Baker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baker)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/528 "2023-12-30T21:34:58Z")
This thread looks as if nobody wants to let anybody else have the last word! 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/529 "2023-12-30T21:38:36Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > IDF could target them with 10% of the Hamas-kill-rate of their current methodology. Go much, much more targeted, forgoing most of their opportunities to kill Hamas, and only taking the opportunities where they could get them with a much lower risk of civilian casualties. What about Israeli troops, who are currently fighting street to street, house to house, tunnel to tunnel? How many of them should the Israeli government allow to die in order to lower the risk to Palestinian civilians? This is not an air war. This is a ground war with air support. I’ve been an infantry squad leader. If I was advancing through an enemy city, and someone opened fire on my men from a house, I would call an airstrike on that house, whether or not I knew whether there were civilians in it. Any squad leader in any army in any war would call an airstrike on that house; hell, _Captain America_ would call an airstrike on that house. That’s the sort of situation we’re dealing with here. ---
**Author:** ![Sylvanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sylvanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylvanz)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/530 "2023-12-30T21:48:33Z")
On topic: they’ve been asked more than once to take it to one of the many available hamas israel topics. They seem unable or unwilling to. It’s rude, and self serving. What are _they_ thinking. I posted on it twice and I’ve committed to not add to the hi-jack again. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/531 "2023-12-30T21:58:18Z")
> [@Sylvanz](#): > > On topic: they’ve been asked more than once to take it to one of the many available hamas israel topics. Fair, and sorry. I tend to pay attention to the conversation more than the topic title, and too easily get pulled into hijacks. ---
**Author:** ![Sylvanz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/fbc32d/32.png) [@Sylvanz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sylvanz)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2023, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/532 "2023-12-30T22:04:56Z")
I know right? I’ve struggled not to dive into this. On the other hand I don’t want to go to the other threads because I find it so depressing. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/533 "2023-12-31T01:39:27Z")
It’s happening here, I think, because the other threads are being strictly policed to keep ad hominems out of the discussion, and here they can attack the poster rather than the post. Given the inflamed passions created by this war, I’d say it’s inevitable that the Pit would see this happening. Maybe a Pit mod should take the Israel/Hamas posts out of this thread and deposit them in their own black hole of a new thread. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/534 "2023-12-31T01:45:33Z")
There are several Pit threads touching on the subject: > [@Discussion for the Israel-Hamas War: A thread in the Pit](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/discussion-for-the-israel-hamas-war-a-thread-in-the-pit/992653/22): > > Most dangerous conflict for journalists, as well as for UN workers: Is the most general option. And much more appropriate. There’s another couple, mostly involving attacks on Babale, Walken\_After\_Midnight, and a few other noticeable posters with strong opinions on the conflict. But I figured the general purpose one is easier. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/535 "2023-12-31T01:57:12Z")
LHOD took the actual discussion back to the discussion thread. The poster whose bullshit I called out in this thread was mod noted for said bullshit. We now return to your regularly scheduled calling out of posters… ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/536 "2023-12-31T02:14:22Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > We now return to your regularly scheduled calling out of posters… That’d be great. I’m already weary of Israel/Hamas issues from the actual threads, and to have this devolve into really simplistic ad hominems has been exhausting. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/537 "2023-12-31T04:17:22Z")
Agreed. Glad we can set that aside and start bitching about a few of the folks over here instead: > [@Please stop using singular they for posters who have an established gender](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306): > > This is not a pit thread and I’m not calling anyone out in particular. I’ve just noticed a growing trend on this board. Poster A is male, (or female). Poster B has interacted with A enough, or is in a thread where the preponderance of he or she pronouns about A clearly show A’s gender. B makes a long post about A consistently using they/them. I’m not a fan of singular they for known individuals at the best of times. Although I’d respect if and use it for someone who specifically requests if for… Commencing with the poisoned well in the OP and going downhill from there. The usual suspects plus a couple of surprise guest stars will make their appearance. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/538 "2023-12-31T04:26:20Z")
Indeed, that’s a good thread to point to for this thread’s purposes. For example, a certain poster just took a massive thread dump there (already flagged). > [@Please stop using singular they for posters who have an established gender](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-stop-using-singular-they-for-posters-who-have-an-established-gender/995306/310): > >   How about calling them what they really are?:  Men Men are not, and never will be women, no matter what they believe, no matter what they pretend, no matter what they have done to themselves to try to become pseudo-women.  That’s just hard, immutable science.   And it is most certainly not “oppression” to decline to recognize anyone as what they clearly are not.   Why should real women have any need for a “cis…” prefix, to distinguish them from fake women? ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/539 "2023-12-31T04:36:01Z")
Please, please do not dump me in with that poster. That’s not at all what I was clumsily trying to point out. Any person can be what they are. I don’t care. I don’t think I’m better than anyone, more privileged more whiter, more anything. I just don’t think this board needs to only use they/them pronouns. I think it’s hard to remember and hard to read. That’s all. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2023, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/540 "2023-12-31T04:41:11Z")
> [@Beckdawrek](#): > > I just don’t think this board needs to only use they/them pronouns. I think it’s hard to remember and hard to read. Beck. I say this with all due respect. What the fuck are you talking about? No one suggested that the board should only use they/them pronouns. Nobody. One poster asked if it would be a violation of the rules _for them_ to only ever use gender neutral pronouns (not even they/them but e/em, pronouns of that user’s own creation). They were told "yes that would potentially violate the rules. Another poster, maybe more then one, said they strive to use they/them by default, and that they believe that English would shift that way eventually. But no one said that we should change board rules to force everyone to use only gender neutral pronouns. So I ask again - what the _fuck_ are you talking about? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532.md?page=28)