# What were you THINKING? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 13, 2023, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532 "2023-10-13T19:36:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 1\ **Showing post:** 7790
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2026, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532/7790 "2026-08-01T11:06:03Z")
I’m torn on whether this _deserves_ to be here, but the OP is in FQ and my response is very much IMHO (bordering on WTF?), so here it goes: > [@How common is/was three-way racial segregation?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/how-common-is-was-three-way-racial-segregation/1032030/14): > > It’s an issue, but the issue is not refusing citizenship until a family has been there enough generations. It’s partly a situation where many Roma see no benefit to engaging in the bureaucracy of the country they live in, especially if they are undocumented or in situations where cultural laws and country laws differ, potentially leaving them at risk of legal trouble, together with some unwillingness of officials to deal with the group. There is ‘othering’ on both sides, it’s not as simple as a ‘them’ being denied citizenship, it’s a group of largely former undocumented refugees who either don’t have the required knowledge or information or -often justifiably- are unwilling to engage with the system. Some may have been resident for 20 years, but if they can’t provide any proof at all of that, it’s going to be difficult. This is especially likely to be the case for those living a nomadic lifestyle with no record of residency or bills. I’m sorry, but no. Systemic failures are not a #bothsides problem. It is a systemic problem. This framing is particularly detestable: “partly a situation where many Roma see no benefit to engaging in the bureaucracy of the country they live in” …and… “There is ‘othering’ on both sides, it’s not as simple as a ‘them’ being denied citizenship, it’s a group of largely former undocumented refugees who either don’t have the required knowledge or information or -often justifiably- are unwilling to engage with the system.“ …and… “but if they can’t provide any proof at all of that, it’s going to be difficult. This is especially likely to be the case for those living a nomadic lifestyle with no record of residency or bills.” No. Fuck that. These are entirely problems of the state’s making, and could be solved unilaterally through state action. Laws on citizenship and nationality are not derived from some natural, immutable truth. States choose what qualifies someone as a citizen. States choose what evidence (documentary or otherwise) will be required for someone to prove their citizenship. States choose what rights will be granted to citizens and denied others. This is a particularly pressing concern in the United States right now because one of the best remedies to this kind of systemic statelessness and permanent marginalization that has affected groups like the Roma is to adhere to a regime of _jus solis_ birthright citizenship. It’s one of the few things the US got right after the Civil War, and that a bunch of fascists are trying so hard these last few years to undermine it now should horrify us all, not get repeatedly sane-washed by news media as a matter for debate. We in the United States are totally fucked if the wrong Supreme Court Justice dies in the next 2.5 years (at least). (ETA: ok, we are _even more totally fucked_ if the wrong Justice dies). --- _[View the full topic](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-were-you-thinking/991532)._