As fascinating as the snark-off between y’all is, I’m taking a standard action to remove the effect from all allies. Hopefully the effect is removed now.
Hm. Probably not. Two a day, probably, but not four unless they were using the Midnight Augmentation recharge trick. If they were, they could definitely do it. But we’re talking a group 5 levels below CR. A single level 8 psion could easily handle four t-rexes a day, I would say, because the T-rex would be much less likely to save vs. his ego whips, since he’d have an int of…26ish (assuming he started with 18 int, +2 int race, +2 from levels, and +4 from the headband of intellect he is likely to be wearing at that point) giving his augmented ego whip a saving throw DC of 22 (to the T-rex’s will save of +8) and an average cha damage of 5. That means it costs him 7*2 (augmented ego whip twice) + 3 (psionic levitate) = 17 power points per T-rex, for a total of 68 out of his total power point pool of 90. The other 22 points in reserve are enough for three more augmented ego whips if the t-rexes don’t go down as quickly as the average suggests they should, so he’s got a nice cushion as margin of error. So a single level 8 psion has handled four CR8 encounters that are supposed to be handled by a party of 4 level 8 characters. And he did so while essentially never being in danger at all.
A T-rex may be a decent challenge to a level 8 group without access to flight, that chooses to fight head on; in that case the CR may be accurate. But that’s part of why I say the system doesn’t work like it is meant to, since it can’t take into account all the little nuances.
Turning, I’d say, will buy them time, but not the ability to hit it. If it flees, it’s fleeing into a solid object or straight up, putting itself out of line of sight or out of reach.
And while it has only +3 to hit, it’s aiming for touch AC, which the cleric and fighter are likely to have between 9 and 11 (barring odd builds) since their dex modifier is likely to be between -1 and +1.
However, you’ve got a point, they stand more of a chance than my initial snap judgement. But if that allip gets in even a single hit, it’s going to have dealt wisdom drain and definitely cost the party more than 1/4 of their daily resources, since they now have to get a restoration (cost if they purchase it from an NPC caster is 380 gold if they find a level 7 cleric to cast it on them; a significant chunk of the 2700 gp that a 3rd level character’s entire cash+equipment is assumed to be). It’s also got Improved Initiative, giving it a +5 to initiative; that means it has a pretty good chance of going before the cleric and fighter, and likely somewhere around even odds of going before the wizard and rogue. That means it’ll probably open with a Charge on the cleric, since it’s smart enough to realize the cleric is a major threat. The cleric will be flat-footed, so even if he has a positive dex bonus, it won’t apply this round, which means the allip is aiming for AC 10 or even AC 9 if the cleric has negative dex. If it hits, the cleric loses 1d4 wisdom, and it gains 5 temporary hp. Each time it hits, its survivability goes up.
They could win if it decides to stand and fight, but the entire encounter has a very high chance of wiping them out even if the allip does give them a straight-up fight. All it would take is the cleric failing his saving throw (assuming 20 wisdom, he’s got a 35% chance of failing) or failing to turn it (55% chance that he doesn’t, as you said) and then having it hit a couple times. And if the cleric doesn’t manage to turn it, good odds the fighter and rogue aren’t even participating because of its babble, and even the wizard’s good will save may not be enough since he probably doesn’t have a positive wisdom modifier (meaning he has a 60% chance of failing). And if it chooses to employ hit and run and/or sneaky tactics, it’s probably going to win.
So, agreed, it’s not the guaranteed tpk that my first snap judgement thought it would be, but it’s also definitely tougher than ‘CR3’ would suggest at first glance.
Assuming we’re not dealing with a long-time fan of the party (“please sign my tentacleeees !”), how would it know who the Cleric is ? The standard party has two heavily armoured dudes on the frontlines and depending on their deity the Cleric could be lugging heavy iron as well (o Kord, my beloved musclegod, how I love thee, let me count the ways…). A non-standard party that uses, say, a Barbarian or Wizard or Ranger as their skill monkey might have three - or none.
That’s quibbling on my part though, I agree that the Allip, like its little brother the Shadow, is a gigantic pain in the arse at low levels. Speaking of Shadows, my lvl 9 Witch got instadropped by a Greater one recently. I rolled poor init (despite having Improved Init and another +2 from a Trait… DnD sucks when your average d20 roll is 5 :p), took 7 points of Str damage in the surprise round, 3 on the first real round. Never stood a bloody chance.
The general issue you’re pointing toward is the age-old military issue that if one force has ranged attacks and an unnassailable position, and the opposing force has no ranged attacks capable of reaching the first force, the opposing force is going down. A GM who designs an encounter between 8th-level PCs and a T-Rex in open terrain is basically handing dinosaur-flavored candy to the PCs.
But that’s not the only way to handle it. Imagine some sort of cave T-Rex that charges the party in a room with a 20’ ceiling. How confident are you that the 8th-level PC will survive the encounter?
Mostly true–but note that if a 3rd-level fighter takes 3 points of wis damage and drops from a 10 to a 7, that fighter might decide to live with that damage for a few levels.
I seem to have communicated clearly enough for everyone else. Perhaps the next time there’s missing information critical to your decision-making, you’ll simply ask a clarifying question before jumping to conclusions and blaming an innocent party.
But I won’t hold my breath. Toodles.
Arik and CandidGamera, take it to the Pit and out of this topic.
Heh, had a response typed up the other day and didn’t get around to posting it.
The T-Rex’s environment in the monster manual is listed as ‘warm plains’. Taking a monster out of its natural environment and putting it into something completely different which also gives it significant combat advantages should fall under altering the battlefield to give it a considerable advantage, in which case the encounter level/cr should increase accordingly, according to the rules/guidelines in the DMG.
An 8th level magic/psionics user would almost certainly survive the encounter, though defeating the T-rex under those conditions would be far less certain. However, it did force me to think in other directions, and I realized another, much more effective way of defeating the T-rex. A telepath psion can cast psionic charm augmented to affect animals at level 3. That means if he can beat the t-rex’s will save, he just turned it friendly and effectively won the encounter. The level 8 psion can certainly beat the t-rex’s will save before dying, I’d say. Also, a wizard high enough level to cast charm monster can do the same thing. If he really wanted to kill it at that point, he could use its friendly status to set up a situation where it has no chance to survive, since animals don’t have the int to realize they’re being led into a trap.
Meh. This seems a little silly to me, as though you’re saying, “The CR system is broken, because under specific circumstances technically advised by the game but rarely seen in actual games [in my experience], this monster is too easy–and if you put the monster in the place where it’s more often seen, you need to up the CR so that it’s still too easy for the CR!” The problem here, if anything, is that the MM writers used naturalistic rather than gamist information in writing the critter’s natural environment. Every time in a game I’ve fought dinosaurs, it’s been underground :).
Mmm, possibly. Consider that if it’s feeling threatened–as it might if something is picking at its brain (I’d say that after the first successful save it’d feel threatened, giving one round of freebies), it gets +5 on its save. Beating a +13 save is not going to be easy.
Underground, I see the fight as going something like this:
Round 1: Psion hopes to win initiative, and hopefully uses some power to flee (invisibility, fly, etc.–I’m not very familiar with psionics). If the psion doesn’t flee successfully, then round 1 the psion tries to use that charm power–likely at a DC of 17-18 (+5 int, 2 power level, +1 from power focus or something), granting a 40-45% chance of success. (Of course if the T-Rex feels threatened, that drops to 15-20% chance of success).
If the psion fails, the t-rex charges and bites at +22. If it hits–and it probably does–it grapples at +30, which almost certainly hits. At this point the psion is down by about 23 points. A psion with a Con of 14 probably has around 37 or so hit points.
Round 2: Psion is grappled. To use any power, he’ll need to make a Con check DC 20 + power level. This is going to be very hard to do.
T-Rex will attempt to swallow, using an opposed grapple check of +30. If he succeeds, the psion takes another ~25 points of damage and will continue taking that damage every round. But that’s enough: psion out.
IOW, an 8th-level psion getting in a fight with a T-rex must guarantee he’s never close enough to be hit, or else he almost certainly dies.
This thread has strayed from its original intent. But thus is the fate of any RPG discussion.
Here’s more of an absurdity than a hack, but it had its fun moments nonetheless.
Years ago, my friend KP ran a 1st edition campaign (which allowed for Dragon magazine addenda even though it shouldn’t have) in which the players only rolled 3D6 for stats, in order from Str to Cha. If your character class had a minimum score, you got that or a higher stat roll, which was rarely the case. I think KP’s point was to show we didn’t have to have super high stats to play AD&D, but it was effectively lost.
One player, JD, infamous for exploiting and min/maxing, came up with a female Drow Cavalier/Cleric, which had minimums in every stat, enough in most cases to get a bonus.
I made a ranger, but my typical suck luck gave me a Str of 7 and a Cha of 3. I decided to wear a bag over my head. Another player, JiM, made a cleric who also had sucky stats, and his Wis roll was lower than the minimum of 9, so he had to take the 9. That meant he couldn’t learn certain spells and had spell failure chances. Another player, JoM, made a Kender Thief, and had much better luck on the 3D6 rolls and could kick my ass if he wanted to. Most of the campaign was him abusing me and making my life miserable. He sneaked into my bedroom while I was asleep, pulled the bag off my head, and said “Gee, you’re ugly! Put this back on!”
I don’t recall what the campaign was actually about. We mainly clowned around the village showing off how pathetic we were and it just kind of dissolved.
A friend of mine ran a campaign like that once. I rolled two natural 18s during character creation, one of them in STR.
I was pretty much the only person in the group who ever agitated for a second session. 