# What will America do when it's not the only superpower? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 13, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-america-do-when-its-not-the-only-superpower/650184 "2013-02-13T15:17:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Oedipus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Oedipus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oedipus)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-america-do-when-its-not-the-only-superpower/650184/41 "2013-02-15T15:16:29Z")
What I think the larger question is, is how will inter-personal relations between countries change when we can’t just GO TO WAR like we used to and even the most insane actors are pretty rational by today’s standard. How will diplomacy change and how will the world look when larger alliances are made and warmachines get bigger and bigger? When virtually EVERYONE has a nuke, will we decide that we just can’t go to war anymore? Also, it seems that in UN talks and stuff, the US is always a leader of discussion and of action. Will we get to a point where countries’ economic viability, or combined viability, can rival the US and tell them what to do? ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-america-do-when-its-not-the-only-superpower/650184/42 "2013-02-15T16:23:33Z")
Two things-when the UK was the sole super power, things were not so bad-the Royal Navy patrolled the seas, suppressed slavery, and generally policed the world. The USA did the same-but now, it is bankrupt. The funny thing is, China (the rising power) has no desire or inclination to take on the role of world cop-they prefer to make money instead. Maybe that is not such a bad idea-Africa wasn’t very nice during the reign of the superpowers-maybe business and profit making are the way to go. What would China do, faced with a civil war in a place like Somalia? Most likely, nothing. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-america-do-when-its-not-the-only-superpower/650184/43 "2013-02-15T16:48:54Z")
> [@scabpicker](#): > > Are you sure? The last time there was a multi-polar globe, we had large wars fairly regularly. I’m not sure if that’s due to the lack of a obvious hierarchy in a multi-polar world, or if the countries of that time just thought there was more to be gained in war. I’m into everyone having a voice, but I’m not sure that I would want to go back to a pre-WWII international dynamic. I agree. It seems to me that back when you had “major powers”, “minor powers” and everyone else, there was a lot more contention, strange alliances and very bloody wars, in comparison to the nearly 70 years of relative peace we’ve enjoyed since the rise of the superpower(s) post WWII. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-america-do-when-its-not-the-only-superpower/650184/44 "2013-02-15T17:05:51Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Two things-when the UK was the sole super power, things were not so bad-the Royal Navy patrolled the seas, suppressed slavery, and generally policed the world. The UK was never a “superpower”. It was a “great power”. France, Germany, Russia, Austria, the Ottoman Empire and so on were equal, or near equal, or superior in terms of economic, cultural, and military strength. There never was a time when the UK was stronger than its next two or three rivals combined. Yes, the Royal Navy was the largest and most capable navy in the world, but naval power is only one metric of military strength, and the UK army was much smaller and less capable than France or Russia or Germany/Prussia. Obviously this is because the UK was an island nation and the naval focus made sense. But the UK always had to rely on continental allies when fighting continental wars. They brought the navy and their allies brought the armies. In the period we’re talking about France was the closest thing to a superpower in Europe, especially in the Napoleonic Era. The UK was never even close to the economic and military and cultural power of France. ---
**Author:** ![Kepler1571](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/db5fbb/32.png) [@Kepler1571](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kepler1571)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-america-do-when-its-not-the-only-superpower/650184/45 "2013-02-15T19:47:11Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > The UK was never even close to the economic and military and cultural power of France. Didn’t the UK directly control a quarter of the world’s population at the height of its empire? I’m pretty sure France never got near that. The US \*certainly \*never did. I think it depends on how quickly the US loses its current hegemony. If it’s quick, the way the Brits fell apart, I’m afraid for the world. I can see some populist leader in the US actually ginning up a serious war in the panic that would accompany that kind of discontinuity especially because (as with Britain) it would have serious short term economic effects too. If we can somehow manage to take our foot off the gas and slowly return to being “just” a Great Power, alongside the obvious contenders of India, China, Brazil, and maybe the EU if they ever get their act together, then I think we will handle it with grace and even a smidgeon of our old values intact. This is particularly true since at the same time the US will become far more diverse ethnically and culturally, so the forces of reaction won’t be able to play religious or racial gambits. This is of course assuming nation states even matter in the future. We may be moving towards a different model of social organization and competition, and the “US” may wind up a sort of nostalgic atavism like the HRE was. ---
**Author:** ![silverkitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3da27b/32.png) [@silverkitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silverkitty)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-america-do-when-its-not-the-only-superpower/650184/46 "2013-02-15T20:14:49Z")
I don’t think the US is still a super power, they owe too much money to china and traitorous company’s continue to send their jobs to China. I think it is time to notice China is the newest super power. Thankfully the US and China need each other, China needs the US to buy the American companies goods, and the US needs the goods from those American companies in China. ---
**Author:** ![Kepler1571](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/db5fbb/32.png) [@Kepler1571](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kepler1571)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-america-do-when-its-not-the-only-superpower/650184/47 "2013-02-15T20:18:59Z")
> [@silverkitty](#): > > I don’t think the US is still a super power, they owe too much money to china That’s what _makes us_ a super power. “If you owe the bank $500,000, then the bank owns you. If you owe the bank $500,000,000 then you own the bank.” 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-america-do-when-its-not-the-only-superpower/650184/48 "2013-02-15T21:19:37Z")
> [@bump](#): > > I agree. It seems to me that back when you had “major powers”, “minor powers” and everyone else, there was a lot more contention, strange alliances and very bloody wars, in comparison to the nearly 70 years of relative peace we’ve enjoyed since the rise of the superpower(s) post WWII. Because in modern times wars of conquest and outright empires aren’t typically profitable. And there’s been plenty of war, the US and USSR manipulated and funded immense amounts of fighting across the world; we just count that as “peace” because most of the people dying were and are poor and brown. If a few million people die in Africa or Asia or South America, that’s not real people dying like it would be if they were white people in Europe during WWII. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-america-do-when-its-not-the-only-superpower/650184/49 "2013-02-15T22:09:53Z")
> [@](#): > > We do something insanely stupid, like Abu Ghraib, get caught, are embarrassed… Who is this “we” you speak of? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-america-do-when-its-not-the-only-superpower/650184/50 "2013-02-15T22:39:47Z")
> [@solosam](#): > > Who is this “we” you speak of? America re-elected Bush and has gone along with the Obama coverup of the Bush torture programs; we’ve made it clear that as a nation we’re just fine with the torture and murder at Abu Ghraib and in the rest of the “extraordinary rendition” torture network. Were just embarrassed to having gotten caught. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-america-do-when-its-not-the-only-superpower/650184/51 "2013-02-15T23:10:17Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > Is there any real reason why e.g. the US and EU won’t be close allies? It seems both have very similar goals, both have similar cultures, and so on. Or even the EU, US, Brazil and South Africa? > > In terms of economy, the EU’s economy is already significantly larger than that of the US, by the way. There’s the objection that the EU is 27 countries so it makes little sense to compare to the likes of the US, but in many respects the EU behaves like a single entity (e.g. with the recent negotiations between the EU and US over a FTA, a single currency amongst 20 of its members, a nascent European military in the deployment of battlegroups, a single seat at the WTO, and so on). It seems even right now America’s dominance is being threatened and there’s not been an apocalypse. Significantly? The EU is larger by only about 2 trillion. EU generates around $17.6 trillion, the US at $15.7. We also have better control over our currency than the EU. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-america-do-when-its-not-the-only-superpower/650184/52 "2013-02-15T23:22:46Z")
In what universe is $2 trillion and growing not significant? The EU’s GDP is 13% larger than the US’s by my calculations with half of Eastern Europe still in dire poverty. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2013, 5:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-america-do-when-its-not-the-only-superpower/650184/53 "2013-02-16T05:00:32Z")
> [@silverkitty](#): > > I don’t think the US is still a super power, they owe too much money to china and traitorous company’s continue to send their jobs to China. I think it is time to notice China is the newest super power. Thankfully the US and China need each other, China needs the US to buy the American companies goods, and the US needs the goods from those American companies in China. What makes a country a superpower? As I said before, China’s economy is about half the size of the US, and it’s population is 4 times greater. That means your average Chinese person gets by on 1/8th the income of an average American. When the average Chinese person has an income to match the average Mexican, then let’s come back to talk about how China is the newest superpower. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-america-do-when-its-not-the-only-superpower/650184/54 "2013-02-17T21:44:42Z")
> [@Latro](#): > > All the wile proclaiming that you _are_ angels and demanding that everyone play by angel rules, which change as soon as it is opportune. > > It’s mainly the hypocrisy that is so irksome. I think I’ve already conceded that there are many hypocritical elements in US history and culture. I’m just saying that I don’t see us as any more villainous than, say, Great Britain, Europe, France, or Russia, and certainly less oppressive to our own citizens than North Korea or Saudi Arabia. ---
**Author:** ![solosam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@solosam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solosam)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-america-do-when-its-not-the-only-superpower/650184/55 "2013-02-17T21:50:19Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > America re-elected Bush and has gone along with the Obama coverup of the Bush torture programs; we’ve made it clear that as a nation we’re just fine with the torture and murder at Abu Ghraib and in the rest of the “extraordinary rendition” torture network. Were just embarrassed to having gotten caught. I seem to recall a number of people from Abu G going to jail, and I personally know people who were blamed even though they could not have had knowledge or control over it. That tells me that ‘we’ (whoever ‘we’ is) are far from unanimous in our support for torture. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2013, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-america-do-when-its-not-the-only-superpower/650184/56 "2013-02-17T21:57:43Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > America re-elected Bush and has gone along with the Obama coverup of the Bush torture programs; we’ve made it clear that as a nation we’re just fine with the torture and murder at Abu Ghraib and in the rest of the “extraordinary rendition” torture network. Were just embarrassed to having gotten caught. Leaving aside that your reasoning in this post is heavily flawed, you refused to answer my earlier question. > [@](#): > > Could I trouble you for a cite for your claim regarding America historically dragging off people to “rape camps”? > > Are you sure you’re not thinking WWII era Japan? Now, since you’ve claimed that America historically throws people in rape camps please do so. Otherwise most reasonable people would have to feel you made a charge you can’t back up. ---
**Author:** ![Uther\_Penguin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Uther\_Penguin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Uther_Penguin)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2013, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-america-do-when-its-not-the-only-superpower/650184/57 "2013-02-19T20:34:29Z")
In the 19th century, the Great Powers were those who had to be consulted in all European affairs, even if they had nothing to do with the situation at a first glance - eg, when there was a conflict between Austria and Russia, then Prussia, France and the UK also had a say in its solution, could demand a compensation for any gains the others made and exchanged the highest class of diplomats, the true ambassadors. If we convert that the current Global Powers (thereby sidestepping the _Super_powers question), that would be those who claim officially or inofficially the right to intervene, interfere and generally meddle globally, ie outside of its neighborhood. The US fits that bill, but also the EU and its more powerful members. Russia today is active in the CIS, the Shanghai Org. and Syria, so I think they count as well. China is rather active in Africa, but only economical, not political or military. India is actibve in South Asia, but was not even able to effectively project power to Sri Lanka, so they probably don’t count at all. Brazil does not seem to be active anywhere beyond Southa America, AFAICT. OTOH, the modern equivalent of the “Concert of Europe” would be either the Veto Powers of the UNSC or perhaps the G8. ---
**Author:** ![silverkitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3da27b/32.png) [@silverkitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silverkitty)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-america-do-when-its-not-the-only-superpower/650184/58 "2013-02-21T00:12:14Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > What makes a country a superpower? As I said before, China’s economy is about half the size of the US, and it’s population is 4 times greater. That means your average Chinese person gets by on 1/8th the income of an average American. When the average Chinese person has an income to match the average Mexican, then let’s come back to talk about how China is the newest superpower. What the citizens of the country make is not what makes the super power. The money and weaponry the country has along with the population that could over run another large country does. Could the US over come China in a war? Or visa-versa? Both have nukes to spare, both could deliver those nukes, can both afford to make more nukes or more war? ---
**Author:** ![Imasquare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Imasquare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Imasquare)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-america-do-when-its-not-the-only-superpower/650184/59 "2013-02-21T00:32:50Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > China has a long way to go before they can match the per capita GDP of a wealthy country like Mexico. China has huge problems that can’t be solved by merely doing the same thing they’re doing now, only harder. China has developed rapidly in the last three decades, but their growth has been largely because they stopped doing the incredibly destructive things they used to do. It feels really good when you stop hitting yourself in the face with a hammer. So just joining the ranks of “normal” countries has been a huge improvement. But there’s a limit to how far you can go just by not sabotaging yourself. > > India at least has the backbone of a liberal government, but India has it’s own set of incredibly difficult problems. Brazil may be a large country, but it sure isn’t poised to take on superpower status, let alone power status. > > You’ve got to understand what “superpower” means. Back in the old days, countries were “powers”. So you had the UK, France, Germany, Austria-Hungary, Russia, the Ottoman Empire, and so on. And then you had a tier of smaller countries like Belgium or the Netherlands or Sweden that had to negotiate the world of power politics between the larger powers. Then along comes WWI, and then along comes WWII. At the end of WWII, you had two countries that were each as militarily and/or economically powerful as the next two or three powers combined. That’s how you define “superpower”. Instead of a balance of powers with a bunch of countries that are all within the same ballpark, you have one or two countries that are extreme outliers. > > The Soviet Union never was an economic superpower, it was only a military superpower. And with the collapse of the Soviet Union, Russia isn’t even that. And Russia doesn’t look anywhere close to sorting out it’s problems, and even if it did it wouldn’t be a superpower, it would be a normal country because it wouldn’t have the ability or the will to divert a huge fraction of its economy to the military. > > The only country besides the US that has a plausible future as a superpower in the next few decades is China. China already has the world’s second largest economy. China has a large population, **but it has 1/10th the per capita GDP of the US**. And if China’s economy continues to grow over the next few decades to equal or pass the US economy, it will still have 1/4th the per capita GDP of the US. That means China will continue to struggle just to meet the basic needs of its citizens even when it has the largest economy in the world. How much extra can China divert to superpower style political and military adventures around the globe without destabilizing itself? If China ever does catch up to the US in per capita GDP it will have an economy 5 times as large as the US economy. In that case the US will no longer be a superpower - it will be what Britain is today. The other aspect of this is that China only needs to have a per capita GDP equal to 20% of the US per capita GDP to have an economy as big as the US. Some economists are predicting that China will economically overtake the US in as little as 3 years. [Google Search - China to overtake the USA](http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=china+to+overtake+the+usa&oq=china+to+overtake+the+us&gs_l=hp.3.1.0l2j0i30l2.1304.7177.0.10864.24.16.0.8.8.1.358.3858.0j1j14j1.16.0.les%3B..0.0...1c.1.4.psy-ab.gL6YWWSojIs&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.42661473,d.dGI&fp=8243998a7e8c4379&biw=1920&bih=1029) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-america-do-when-its-not-the-only-superpower/650184/60 "2013-02-21T00:47:16Z")
I’m kind of curious if we’ll see some sort of latter-day NATO with the goal being for multiple countries to strategically stand against China. I assume India would be the major player therein, if it wasn’t the U.S. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-america-do-when-its-not-the-only-superpower/650184.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-america-do-when-its-not-the-only-superpower/650184.md?page=4)