# What Will Europe Really Do? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 14, 2006, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496 "2006-02-14T18:28:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2006, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/61 "2006-02-16T19:46:36Z")
> [@Wesley Clark](#): > > Encouraging the government of Pakistan to try to be more moderate won’t change anything. Actually, I think having more moderate governments **does** change something—it increases the freedom that moderate individuals have to speak their minds and to do as they please. For example, women in southern Iraq generally used not to go around veiled. Now, under a more theocratically repressive government (not that Saddam’s government wasn’t very repressive **politically** , but it wasn’t **religiously** repressive), they’re being strongly pressured to do so. Have the Iraqi women in general suddenly become more conservative and anti-secularist? No, probably not. But they have less room to express any moderate or secularist preferences. So yeah, modifying a government really can modify the social and political climate. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/62 "2006-02-17T06:23:03Z")
> [@](#): > > Whereas the country’s secular courts still use a version of English common law, there is a separate, parallel structure of Islamic courts. There is, quite literally, one law for Muslims and another for everyone else. All Muslims must go through these courts for most aspects of family law and a few of criminal law. Here, sharia law is applied with variable rigour of interpretation, depending on which of the country’s federal states you are being charged in. Offences may range from eating in public during Ramadan or drinking alcohol to apostasy - the deviation from or renunciation of Islam, punishable by a fine or imprisonment. One young Malay made it clear to me that it is extraordinarily difficult and risky for a young man - let alone for a woman - from a Muslim family publicly to renounce Islam, and above all, to renounce it in favour of secularism. What people believe in the depth of their hearts they alone know (“I go my own way,” one told me, cryptically) but public conformity is enforced by family, community and state sanctions. And I think you would find people in Catholic Latin America or Hindu India or Animist parts of Africa that would say the same things. Having different laws according to religion is by no means uncommon. Our system of justice is just one of many. In many areas it is the only way the government could retain power (otherwise religions would form their own police, a la Saudi Arabia) and gain the ability to manage their diverse populations. There are plenty of things that people can’t do in America because of religion (like polygymy) but since their is no sizable native population that practices that it’s not a big deal In any case, i think Islam has a lot of problems. But religions can change drastically (compare Christianity today to Christianity to any other century…or a hellfire American fundamentalist to a, say, Italian Catholic) and Islam isn’t going away any time soon. I think we should examine the causes of Islam’s relationship with the west (and no, that doesn’t need a time machine. Europe’s colonial adventures in the Middle East were going strong well in to the last century. This is not a permanent situation but part of an ongoing process) and emphasize the values of freedom through example. ---
**Author:** ![Pope\_Bob\_The\_Pious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/97f17d/32.png) [@Pope\_Bob\_The\_Pious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pope_Bob_The_Pious)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/63 "2006-02-17T06:44:55Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > Having different laws according to religion is by no means uncommon. In the modern world, it is quite uncommon. There are no ‘Catholic Courts’ in Nicaragua. I had to google for India, but it doesn’t appear that there is a ‘Hindu’ legal system over there. The only example that comes to mind are Islamic courts, enforcing Islamic law. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 9:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/64 "2006-02-17T09:54:04Z")
> [@Pope Bob The Pious](#): > > In the modern world, it is quite uncommon. There are no ‘Catholic Courts’ in Nicaragua. I had to google for India, but it doesn’t appear that there is a ‘Hindu’ legal system over there. > > The only example that comes to mind are Islamic courts, enforcing Islamic law. One of the reasons for the prevalence of Islamic courts in countries is because Islam has a very well developed system of legal thought and jurisprudence. A lot of it isn’t compatible with western/English common law practice but it works as a system of law in its own right. Few other religions have the same development of legal thought which is why you’re not likely to find a hindu court - there just isn’t the legal basis or framework to have one. Whether those courts should still be considered relevant or not is a matter for the government of that country to decide. I think it would be difficult for a country like Britain to maintain dual systems of law and still be clear on what constitutes justice in any given situtation (it would literally be one law for me, another for you). ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/65 "2006-02-17T13:22:34Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > As for the OP…strangly I’m in agreement with what Evil Captor is saying. He is probably as stunned as I am by this odd development. 😛 > > -XT The end times are upon us!!! Repent!!! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/66 "2006-02-17T13:37:13Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But according to that scenario, the largest number of Muslims in this big demographic group will consist of, say, fifth- and sixth-generation descendants of immigrants. Do you really think that those people will still be as attached to shari`a law and similar non-European values as their great-great-grandparents were? > > AFAICT, that’s not typically the case with the Dutch descendants of Indonesian Muslims who came to the Netherlands several decades ago. They generally seem to be considered quite well-integrated, despite still being Muslims and still not looking like “native Dutch”. This would be the optimal solution, and is probably what the Dutch should be working toward. However, it’s by no means a lock that this will happen. The phenomenon of social integration is well understood and has occurred successfully and repeatedly in America. So is the phenomenon of ghettoization. And given that the Islamic immigrants are not just socially, but visibly “different” from the Dutch, with their own value system which they tend to be loathe to give up, and the imams will see any social integration as greatly redung their power, it’s very possible that liittle or no integration will occur. In which case, big problems down the road for the Dutch. I think it would be extremely naive and foolish of the Dutch to asume that the Muslim immigrants will just naturally and easily integrate into Dutch society over the course of time. Be nice if that happens. Be very nasty if it doesn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/67 "2006-02-17T13:45:47Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > Having different laws according to religion is by no means uncommon. Our system of justice is just one of many. In many areas it is the only way the government could retain power (otherwise religions would form their own police, a la Saudi Arabia) and gain the ability to manage their diverse populations. There are plenty of things that people can’t do in America because of religion (like polygymy) but since their is no sizable native population that practices that it’s not a big deal Well, not since we crushed the Mormons. And wiped out the Indians (I thnk some Indian tribes had “non-traditional” marriage arrangements). > [@](#): > > In any case, i think Islam has a lot of problems. But religions can change drastically (compare Christianity today to Christianity to any other century…or a hellfire American fundamentalist to a, say, Italian Catholic) and Islam isn’t going away any time soon. I think we should examine the causes of Islam’s relationship with the west (and no, that doesn’t need a time machine. Europe’s colonial adventures in the Middle East were going strong well in to the last century. This is not a permanent situation but part of an ongoing process) and emphasize the values of freedom through example. By this do you mean, “Let’s wallow in liberal guilt over all the bad things we’vd done in the past” or “Let’s try to learn from past mistakes.” I’ll grant you that we’ve fucked up royally in the Middel East in the past. The CIA operation overthrowing Iran’s democracy and putting up a puppet Shah of Iran back in the 50s was REALLY REALLY REALLY stupid, for example. We’re STiLL paying for that one. The British creation of Iraq was … not well considered. Making the House of Saud a client state of the US in return for letting radical Wahhabi muslims control Saudi Arabia’s educational system … not well considered. But this doesn’t mean that much of the stuff that goes down in the Middle East isn’t directly due to the patriarchal, sexist, greedy, baboonish culture that exists there. That’s where the real problem lies, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/68 "2006-02-17T14:01:55Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > But this doesn’t mean that much of the stuff that goes down in the Middle East isn’t directly due to the patriarchal, sexist, greedy, baboonish culture that exists there. That’s where the real problem lies, IMHO. I found that description also fitted pretty well to the US. And as you say, that’s your opinion. Personally I think if the third world wasn’t regularly being screwed over by the developed world they’d have less to be resentful about towards us. The whole “they hate us because we love freedom” argument is laughable - they hate us because we strangle their trade, try and control their governments and lives and generally tell them what to do! You might think that our actions are justified (separate debate) but you can’t deny that that is one of the biggest contributors to the antipathy towards us. That’s pragmatism rather than post-colonial guilt tripping. Oh, and don’t think I didn’t read your post saying: > [@](#): > > Do you think we value our own safety that little > > Dude! World War I! World War II! Clearly, you fuckers could give a shit about your own safety. I just thought it was so mornonic and lacking in way of contribution to the discussion that I couldn’t bring myself to muster an actual response. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/69 "2006-02-17T14:15:41Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > I found that description also fitted pretty well to the US. And as you say, that’s your opinion. Personally I think if the third world wasn’t regularly being screwed over by the developed world they’d have less to be resentful about towards us. The whole “they hate us because we love freedom” argument is laughable - they hate us because we strangle their trade, try and control their governments and lives and generally tell them what to do! You might think that our actions are justified (separate debate) but you can’t deny that that is one of the biggest contributors to the antipathy towards us. That’s pragmatism rather than post-colonial guilt tripping. Yeah, but it DOES kinda sound like post-colonial guilt-tripping. I agree that this business of installing fascist puppet governments in the Middle east and supporting them while the fuck over their people has not been for us in the long term, or for Middle Easterners in any way whatsoever. But other than that, we haven’t done a lot of “telling them what to do.” If we had, we might not be so bad off. But just to assume that if we withdrew from the region with many apologies, everytghing would be hunky-dory … what are YOU smokin’? > [@](#): > > Oh, and don’t think I didn’t read your post saying: > > I just thought it was so mornonic and lacking in way of contribution to the discussion that I couldn’t bring myself to muster an actual response. I think world Wars 1 and 2 kinda speak for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/70 "2006-02-17T14:21:11Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > This would be the optimal solution, and is probably what the Dutch should be working toward. However, it’s by no means a lock that this will happen. The phenomenon of social integration is well understood and has occurred successfully and repeatedly in America. So is the phenomenon of ghettoization. And given that the Islamic immigrants are not just socially, but visibly “different” from the Dutch, with their own value system which they tend to be loathe to give up, and the imams will see any social integration as greatly redung their power, it’s very possible that liittle or no integration will occur. In which case, big problems down the road for the Dutch. > > I think it would be extremely naive and foolish of the Dutch to asume that the Muslim immigrants will just naturally and easily integrate into Dutch society over the course of time. Be nice if that happens. Be very nasty if it doesn’t. Well, we _were_ extremely naïve and foolish. We didn’t expect from muslims to ‘intergrate’ completely. Otherwise we wouldn’t have built the mosques and Islamic schools, you know. We are USED to it by now, to see the minarettes of mosques being higher than the highest church tower. That’s okay. We just expected them to love us a little bit, I guess. Like we tried to give our love to them. We are still the country of ‘live and let live’. Do anything you like, Love anyone you like, Believe anything you like. Just don’t HURT people. [Oh, another reason why Islam is likely to ‘take over’ Holland, is that the Dutch are emigrating en masse to other countries. [http://www.cbs.nl/nl-NL/menu/themas/dossiers/allochtonen/publicaties/persberichten/2006-013-pb.htm](http://www.cbs.nl/nl-NL/menu/themas/dossiers/allochtonen/publicaties/persberichten/2006-013-pb.htm) Steeds meer Nederlanders emigreren Het aantal Nederlanders dat het land definitief verlaat, blijft stijgen, meldt het CBS. Vorig jaar emigreerden maar liefst 121.000 Nederlanders. Een jaar eerder waren dat er nog 110.000. Last year, 121.000 moved out, the year before: 110.000] And it’s not just the Dutch either. Same things are happening in other European countries that embraced their Islamic fellow ‘countrymen’. Germany, France, Belgium, etc, etc. And DENMARK, ofcourse: All have excellent reputations of being tolerant countries. But all failed with muslims. Must be us… Originally posted by **Kimstu** > [@](#): > > \*But according to that scenario, the largest number of Muslims in this big demographic group will consist of, say, fifth- and sixth-generation descendants of immigrants > Do you really think that those people will still be as attached to shari`a law and similar non-European values as their great-great-grandparents were? \* Yes. And you, yourself, can _see_ that’s exactly what’s happening. Originally posted by **Grossbottom** > [@](#): > > _The second question is whether, at this point, the United States gives a damn about what happens over there. If real trouble broke out, forty years ago we’d have sent a box of ammo and a note telling them to hang in there, nowadays I think we’d be just as likely to send a crate of burkhas and a letter politely inviting them to go fuck themselves. It’s been a long couple decades, and I’m not sure anyone knows just how much damage has been done to European-US relations by the rhetoric. I suspect it’s greater than most Europeans realize, especially if Washington’s plastic smile in the wake of the cartoon situation is any indication._ Very true. We’ve created this mess, I think we ought to solve it ourselves. I don’t expect anything from the US. [except maybe a burkha. Size 2, if you have.] ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/71 "2006-02-17T14:33:28Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > I found that description also fitted pretty well to the US. And as you say, that’s your opinion. Personally I think if the third world wasn’t regularly being screwed over by the developed world they’d have less to be resentful about towards us. The whole “they hate us because we love freedom” argument is laughable - they hate us because we strangle their trade, try and control their governments and lives and generally tell them what to do! You might think that our actions are justified (separate debate) but you can’t deny that that is one of the biggest contributors to the antipathy towards us. That’s pragmatism rather than post-colonial guilt tripping. Well a lot of them hate poor little Denmark now. And Denmark never screwed over anyone in the Middle East (except perhaps Iraq) – in fact Denmark has being sending down millions on millions dollars in aid every year for God know how long (without one damn thing to show for it either) and generally being taking the Arab side in the Arab/Israel disputes etc. From here it looks most like it’s them trying to tell us what to do with our government and our lives and our freedom of press (which is abolish it). And have been strangling our trade for some three decades by the oil valves and now by organised boycotts. The Middle East has earned gazillions of dollars by exporting some black goo they, no thanks to themselves, were so fortunately to happen to have in their underground – and which is mostly extracted by Western companies. That’s not strangling their trade – that’s giving them a bonanza. No they hate the West because they’re envious and weak when they ought, in their own understanding, to be the ones calling the shots. They’re pressed from all sides; culturally, politically, military. And it irks them to no end to see the West having overtaken them in pretty much all things. And instead of taking a long look in the mirror, it’s always easier to blame all ones own miserable incompetence and stupidity on someone else, and to invent all kinds of idiotic conspiracy theories which explain why it is, that you have been cheated out of your righteous inheritance. It’s just not helping any. They need to change and that’s that. And you’re doing them no favour by helping convince them that their own miserable position in the world is anybody but their own fault. And the same goes for Europe. Europe needs to wake up and smell the coffee. And stop going around in their little safe and cosy wand utterly pathetic world of anti-Americanism, blame Reagan, Bush, Cheney, whatever. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/72 "2006-02-17T14:45:39Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But according to that scenario, the largest number of Muslims in this big demographic group will consist of, say, fifth- and sixth-generation descendants of immigrants Do you really think that those people will still be as attached to shari`a law and similar non-European values as their great-great-grandparents were? > [@gum](#): > > Yes. > And you, yourself, can see that’s exactly what’s happening. But not with fifth- and sixth-generation immigrants, right? As I said above, it seems to me that the Dutch descendants of earlier **Indonesian** Muslim immigrants are considered pretty well integrated. Is that a mistaken idea? The way it looks, to a foreigner like me at least, is as though the “indisches” or Indonesian-Dutch are generally seen as a part of the Dutch colonial past and are accepted as the “good Muslims” (to put it crudely). The impression I get is that the Muslims who are considered dangerously un-integrated (the “bad Muslims”, so to speak) are mostly the first- and second-generation immigrants from (mostly) Morocco and Turkey. They were invited to the Netherlands beginning in the 1970’s, generally as unskilled “guest workers” who, it was expected, would return to their home countries after a few years, so they weren’t required to learn Dutch or to integrate significantly into Dutch society or to give up their ties with their countries of origin. (This policy has now been replaced, ISTM, by one that focuses much more strongly on “inburgering” or immigration/assimilation, with immigrants required to pass Dutch language/history exams and so forth.) But the “bad Muslims” haven’t produced any fifth- or sixth-generation descendants yet, AFAICT, so it seems too soon to tell whether they will really remain as unassimilated and “un-Dutch” as the first- and second-generation ones. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/73 "2006-02-17T15:12:53Z")
**Kimstu** , I don’t know about Indonesian/Dutch muslims. I found a list of these churches: Molukse Evangelische Kerk (de grootste) Molukse Protestantse Noodgemeente in Nederland Zuid-Oost Molukse Protestantse Kerk Zuid-Molukse Christelijke Kerk Indonesische Protestantse Kerk Molukse Protestantse Kerk Kristen Zuid-Molukse Kerk in Nederland. Doesn’t sound very Islamic to me. Anyway: I don’t _care_ about your exuses. They’re getting stale. We are HURT by Islam We are CENSORIZED by Islam We are being TAKEN OVER by Islam. Thanks to you, and your ilk. [Theo van Gogh must laugh his ass off, in his grave, seeing how a couple of cartoons sparked a discussion. Instead of his murder] Oh and **Rune** in that first paragraph of yours you could have interchanged Denmark to Holland. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/74 "2006-02-17T15:42:48Z")
> [@gum](#): > > Kimstu, I don’t know about Indonesian/Dutch muslims. I don’t know much either, which is why I asked. I did find a little [information](http://www.interculturelecommunicatie.com/download/islam.html) on Google: > [@](#): > > The Moluccan Muslim community in Holland, with two mosques, has no umbrella organization of its own. The same holds true for three other prayer-halls of Muslims from Indonesia, where the Indonesian Young Muslims Association in Europe (PPME) plays a coordinating role. The groups worshipping in these three mosques mainly consist of Indonesian students residing temporarily in The Netherlands. The Indonesian Muslims who, with the exception of the just-mentioned Moluccans, settled in Holland during the decolonization period have not founded religiously based organizations at all. [How to tell if you’re Dutch:](http://www.zompist.com/dutchcult.html) > [@](#): > > If you’re Dutch… […] > > # You see no contradiction in having both a democratic government and a queen who is head of state. > > # Socialism is OK, if not taken to extremes. Undiluted capitalism scares you-- you expect the government to protect you from corporate greed. > > # Communists are 1) students in the sixties who wanted to change the world; 2) some old farmers in the north of your country who still vote for the minuscule communist party; 3) tough guys who did their patriotic duty against the Germans during the occupation. > > # Race is a complicated issue. Where people come from is about as important as their skin color. You consider people with Indonesian ancestors Dutch. […] > [@gum](#): > > Anyway: I don’t care about your exuses. They’re getting stale. What “excuses”? I asked some questions about Dutch Muslims from different countries of origin, and gave my impressions about the ways in which they seem to be viewed in the Netherlands. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/75 "2006-02-17T15:53:16Z")
> [@Pope Bob The Pious](#): > > In the modern world, it is quite uncommon. There are no ‘Catholic Courts’ in Nicaragua. I had to google for India, but it doesn’t appear that there is a ‘Hindu’ legal system over there. > > The only example that comes to mind are Islamic courts, enforcing Islamic law. Let me clarify…in India it’s family law (marriage, divorce, inheritance) that is governed differently according to religion. Basically when you get married you register the marriage under a religion (or you can choose a neutral court marriage…recently they began making registering marriages mandatory) and any future civil conflicts are judged according to the laws set forth under that religion’s arrangements with the government. This is common- de jure and de facto- everywhere where there are multiple religions that are older than dirt and a fairly new government. In the Middle East, for example, it’s common for Christians to be technically allowed to drink alcohol even though it is forbidden to Muslims living within the country. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/76 "2006-02-17T21:37:33Z")
**Kimstu** , my point is: There \*aren’t \* a lot of Dutch/Indo muslims in the Netherlands. They’re mostly Protestant. There might very well be _temporary_ students who pray in mosques, but as your cite says: > [@](#): > > _“The Indonesian Muslims who, with the exception of the just-mentioned Moluccans, settled in Holland during the decolonization period have not founded religiously based organizations at all.”_ Most of them are not muslim anymore. Apostates. > [@](#): > > _# Race is a complicated issue. Where people come from is about as important as their skin color. You consider people with Indonesian ancestors Dutch_ This is correct. We don’t care where people come from. We don’t give a shit what color your skin is. So we \*do \* consider people with Indonesian ancestors Dutch. We also consider people with people with Chinese, African etc. ancestors, Dutch. [I love that site, btw. 🙂 Here’s another fun one: [http://www.cactii.net/~bb/dutch.php](http://www.cactii.net/~bb/dutch.php) Let me know how you Dutch you are? :)] By excuses I mean that you try everything to divert us from the important part: Islam is a intolerant, backwards religion and it’s trying to gain power in Europe - in my country - by sheer violence. . ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2006, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/77 "2006-02-17T22:58:29Z")
> [@gum](#): > > [I love that site, btw. 🙂 Here’s another fun one: [http://www.cactii.net/~bb/dutch.php](http://www.cactii.net/~bb/dutch.php) Let me know how you Dutch you are? :)] heh. I got 8 just answering what a typical Dane would say. I always said Danes are more like the Dutch than the rest of Scandinavians - I also understand most of the written Dutch. Now if you guys could just learn how to speak without breaking your tongue. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/78 "2006-02-18T05:47:24Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > heh. I got 8 just answering what a typical Dane would say. I always said Danes are more like the Dutch than the rest of Scandinavians - I also understand most of the written Dutch. Now if you guys could just learn how to speak without breaking your tongue. hehhehe, :o My tongue’s okay. Do you have a birthday calendar in your bathroom as well? 😃 Have you read this, **Rune**? From [http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=31848:](http://www.yaledailynews.com/article.asp?AID=31848:) The U.S. of A, naturally, will not allow Europe to outdo it at anything, even caving in to death threats, and its luminaries have struck some exemplary profiles in cowardice. Bill Clinton, proving that he can parrot a mullah with nearly as much ease as a Baptist preacher, decried “this appalling example in northern Europe, in Denmark … these totally outrageous cartoons against Islam.” The administration followed Clinton by issuing a blanket denunciation of “anti-Muslim images” in an official State Department statement. Neither Clinton, nor President Bush, apparently, has bothered to look at the Jyllands-Posten cartoons. Otherwise they could not honestly take the position that the cartoons, with one exception, are anywhere in the neighborhood of bigotry. True, in one cartoon of the 12, Muhammad’s turban is a bomb, and, who would have guessed it, that one cartoon is better known and more widely discussed than any of the others. (The way to prove the cartoonist who drew it wrong, however, is not to kill him.) In another “total outrage against Islam,” Muhammad is depicted in heaven before a queue of apparent martyrs, shouting, “Stop! We’ve run out of virgins.” Exposing the hypocrisy of slaughter in the name of God’s justice is not an offense; it is an editorial point eminently worth making. Another of the cartoons is not of Muhammad at all, but of a nervous cartoonist attempting to draw Muhammad and at the same time keep all unwelcome eyes away from his composition. Would anyone like to argue that this cartoon denigrates Muslims? But of course, the reason for the embassy burnings, the promises of murder, the blackmail of civil institutions, is not the light in which a group of Danish cartoonists portrayed Muhammad, but the fact that Danish cartoonists portrayed Muhammad at all. And while Muslims have every right to abhor visual representations of their prophets, they have no right – none whatsoever – to prevent non-Muslims from drawing whatever pictures they want to. This is not a matter of tolerance of Muslim beliefs, but of whether or not we non-believers are prepared to submit ourselves, out of fear, to Islamic law. Capitulation to the bullies is not a sign of an abundance of intellectual sophistication, but a severe lack of self-respect. And from the same page: like University of Copenhagen lecturer Carsten Niehbuhr, who was beaten and left on the side of a road, and Dutch filmmaker Theo van Gogh, who was butchered with a knife in broad daylight Who is - was? - Carsten Niebuhr? . ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/79 "2006-02-18T10:02:52Z")
> [@](#): > > Clinton condemned the publication of the caricatures by European newspapers and urged countries concerned to convict the publishers, according to the reports. > > He said religious convictions of the people should be respected at all costs and no media should be allowed to play with the religious sentiments of people of any faith. [Clinton in Pakistan: Convict cartoon publishers - Says press should not be allowed to criticize other faiths](http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48889) - So is this true? Does Clinton really think the newspapers should be punished, and all religious satire be totally forbidden?! Quite mindboggling. If this is anywhere true. The I have lost all my respect for Clinton. The man is a fucking idiot. Carsten Niebuhr was a Danish explorer of amongst other things the Middle East in the 18 - 19 century. He published some extensive and important works. Carsten Niebuhr Institute is a Danish institute under the University of Copenhagen which specialises in Near Eastern and Arab studies. The man talked about is a (Morrocan and Jewish) lecturer at the institute who in 2004 was forced into a car and severely beaten (hit in the kidnies till he urinated blood) threatned on his and his family life - because he had read from the Koran during a lecture, a thing the attackers meant Jews were allowed to. The attack remains unsolved. First Freedom Fries and now this **Roses of the Prophet Mohammed**! We’re doomed! ([Danish pastries renamed in retaliation for cartoons](http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20060217.WORLD17-4/TPStory)). ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/80 "2006-02-18T10:50:24Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Quite. So long as they pay the jiziya which in states ruled by Islamic law is a per capita tax imposed on non-Muslim adult males. > > [Answers.com](http://www.answers.com/topic/jizya) > > The Koran, unlike the Bible is considered the inerrant, uncorrupted last word by God, superceding the corrupted Bible. At least the harshness of the Old Testament was mitigated by Jesus’ message. The Koran seems to lay the smack down more harshly as it goes on. Kinder injunctions are superceded by harsher ones. There is nowhere near the wriggle room the Enlightenment won for Christians to interpret the Bible. > > Not much wriggle room for western women there. > > [This site](http://www.crescentlife.com/thisthat/feminist%20muslims/translations_of_4_34.htm) tries hard though. > > [The Muslim Association of Great Britian](http://www.mabonline.info/english/modules.php?op=modload&name=Quran&file=viewsura&surano=4&page=2) whose aim is to > > says this. > > A site worth checking out. > > [Sceptic’s Annotated Koran](http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm) not fer nuttin but we have our southern baptist convocation with it’s admonition that wives be obedient to their husbands…apparently a 12th century fantasy that is not limited only to one of the three cults of Yahweh. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496.md?page=5)