# What Will Europe Really Do? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 14, 2006, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496 "2006-02-14T18:28:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![UselessGit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/74df32/32.png) [@UselessGit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UselessGit)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/81 "2006-02-18T13:33:34Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Actually not. [Dhimmis](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi) are/were second- or third-class citizens. Beats being a Goy anyday… Heck, I’m already doomed for reading the Talmud! But why not be Muslim? I think I am a Lutheran or Protestant at the moment but the Muslim label would probably fit just as well. Don’t forget we are an exceptionally Godless people and things like “by the beard of the prophet” are just fun to say (we’ll probably get used to “Death to America” in the long run). The Roses of the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) look delicious and while marriage is very much an outdated concept, I certainly wouldn’t mind an obedient girlfriend. Maybe my mom would even stop refusing to do my laundry… the selfish hag… At any rate, we’re failing miserably at adapting the Muslim world to ours so I assue they’ll be adapting ours to theirs before too long, what with Europeans’ inability to breed these days and all. We had a good run. Salaam, UselessGit ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/82 "2006-02-18T14:21:46Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > [Clinton in Pakistan: Convict cartoon publishers - Says press should not be allowed to criticize other faiths](http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48889) - So is this true? Does Clinton really think the newspapers should be punished, and all religious satire be totally forbidden?! Quite mindboggling. If this is anywhere true. The I have lost all my respect for Clinton. The man is a fucking idiot. Clinton’s triangulation approach has frequently moved hm much farther to the right than I am comfortable with, but these comments actually move him to the right of the people on the right (in the US). He’s out there with the fundies, if this is true. This would be very unusual for Clinton. Which is why I’m gonna need something other than worldnet daily as a source before I buy the notion that this is the uncorrupted word of Clinton. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/83 "2006-02-18T17:23:20Z")
> [@gum](#): > > Kimstu, my point is: There aren’t a lot of Dutch/Indo muslims in the Netherlands. > […] > Most of them are not muslim anymore. Apostates. Well, that sounds like it makes my point even **stronger** : namely, there **are** cases where Muslims come to the Netherlands (in this case, from colonial or post-colonial Indonesia) and assimilate so thoroughly to secular culture that they even **stop identifying as Muslims**. So evidently, that **can** happen. But it is **not** (yet?) happening with the current first- and second-generation Muslim immigrants from places like Morocco and Turkey. So what I’m asking about is, what are the cultural/social/political differences between different groups of Muslim immigrants that produce these different results? What are successful strategies for integrating Muslim immigrants so that their descendants will come to accept and support a multiconfessional, secular society? I’m not suggesting that they **all** have to integrate to the point of becoming “apostates”, but certainly they should be assimilated enough so that individual Muslims feel free to change or abandon their existing beliefs if they want to, just as some individual members of other faiths do. Is this just something that routinely tends to happen over the course of four or five generations, or are there particular policies that are required to foster it? > [@gum](#): > > By excuses I mean that you try everything to divert us from the important part: Islam is a intolerant, backwards religion and it’s trying to gain power in Europe - in my country - by sheer violence. Nonsense. I’m not trying to make any excuses for anybody committing any kind of crime or barbarity, especially violent ones. Nor do I deny that there are major political strains of radical Islamism currently active that pose a potentially serious threat to free, multicultural, tolerant societies. But I just think it’s stone-ass useless to focus our response to that threat on bitching about Islam **in general** , as you seem addicted to doing. Face it, Islam as a religion isn’t going away. The basic cultural themes of monotheism and the daily prayers and male circumcision and fasting on Ramadan and so forth are familiar norms for about a sixth of the world’s entire population, and that percentage is only going to increase in the near- to mid-term future. The Western democracies will either have to figure out how to mainstream a tolerant, secular-friendly form of Islam within their own societies, or develop “cold war” strategies for co-existing at arm’s length with hostile forms of Islam in other societies, or both. In either case, just sitting around griping that “Islam is a bad religion, Islam is a bad religion” isn’t accomplishing anything at all. If you don’t like my efforts to understand the historical development of hostile Islamism in the Netherlands, or my suggestions for strategies to promote better assimilation of European Muslims, then why don’t you offer some constructive alternatives instead of just sniping at me? What do you think the Dutch government **ought** to do about hostile Islamism? Kill all the Muslims? Deport all the Muslims? Tear down the mosques and make the practice of Islam a crime? Legally establish stricter “inburgering” requirements? Abolish the hijab? What? C’mon, let’s see you try to tackle the actual policy issues, instead of just incessantly lamenting how incurably awful things are and how it’s all the fault of people like me. Grrrrrr. > [@gum](#): > > I love that site, btw. Here’s another fun one: [http://www.cactii.net/~bb/dutch.php](http://www.cactii.net/~bb/dutch.php) > Let me know how you Dutch you are? Hee hee, I got 10 clogs out of 10! 🙂 (I have to confess that I kind of figured out the winning strategy after the first few questions, but even without that I think I would have got most of the answers right.) I turn out to be more Dutch than the Dutch on a few of those issues, particularly the grocery checkout line. If you don’t like how long it takes me to put my groceries into my shopping bags in the one correct fashion, that’s your tough luck. Even geduld a.u.b.! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/84 "2006-02-18T20:30:30Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > Clinton’s triangulation approach has frequently moved hm much farther to the right than I am comfortable with, but these comments actually move him to the right of the people on the right (in the US). He’s out there with the fundies, if this is true. This would be very unusual for Clinton. Which is why I’m gonna need something other than worldnet daily as a source before I buy the notion that this is the uncorrupted word of Clinton. I Don’t know how reliable this newspaper is, but here’s another report: [Clinton urges EU to convict publishers of caricatures](http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006%5C02%5C18%5Cstory_18-2-2006_pg1_7) > [@](#): > > ISLAMABAD: Former US president Bill Clinton on Friday condemned the publication of Prophet Muhammad’s (PBUH) caricatures by European newspapers and urged countries concerned to convict the publishers. > > […] > > He said the people’s religious convictions should be respected at all costs and the media should be disallowed to play with the religious sentiments of other faiths. He said the media could criticise any issue including governments and people, but nobody had the right to play with the sentiments of other faiths. Also this quote: > [@](#): > > Clinton said he had no objection to peaceful demonstrations being held worldwide, but this was not the time for violence. - leaves one wondering what exactly Clinton thinks is a more appropriate time for violence over cartoons. And now, as one could expect, the religious censure is spreading. With direct reference to the Muhammed Cartoon case, the Catholic organisation Opus Dei demands that Sony Pictures change certain central and offending passages of the upcomming movie The Da Vinci Code. [Opus Dei wants changes to The Da Vinci Code](http://www.canada.com/topics/entertainment/story.html?id=de2ae85f-983d-4e36-af67-be1a23c7cab9) ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/85 "2006-02-18T21:09:01Z")
This is getting ridiculous. If they make ‘religious speech’ illegal, how in hell are you supposed to be able to criticise the excesses of religion? Would that make criticism of scientology illegal in countries that recognize it at a religion? How about Catholic priests molesting children? Off-limits? I never thought we could so quickly retreat back into an illiberal position on a basic freedom like the freedom of expression. What’s next, blasphemy laws? A council of clerics that gets to determine what is and isn’t acceptable to say? It’s even doubly shocking that this is being led by liberals. I guess they’re letting their multiculturism and ‘tolerance’ trump their beliefs in free expression. How sad. I wonder how long it will be before works like Serrano’s ‘Piss Christ’ could land the artist in jail? We’ve already run into some of this stuff in Canada due to our ‘hate speech’ laws. Free speech must be absolute. Because the minute you put restrictions on it such as ‘hate speech’ laws, it all becomes about the oppression of unpopular viewpoints by the politically powerful or by the violent masses. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/86 "2006-02-18T21:44:17Z")
It’s not clear that it’s especially liberals that have been eager to retreat the freedom of press in the face of religious pressure. A guy like Pat Buchanan has been quite vocal in his critique of the European papers which have brought the cartoons. I should think many right-wing christian religious groups (like the Opus Dei) finds this all plays very nicely into their hands. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/87 "2006-02-18T21:45:03Z")
Oh my lord, I expect much, much better from the SDMB. First, we kick off with an article by worldnetdaily. How in the world is that anything close to an acceptable cite on the SDMB? Then, to support that article we get one from the Pakistani Daily Times? Give me a freaking break. Then, on top of that we get this gem from Rune: > [@Rune](#): > > And now, as one could expect, the religious censure is spreading. With direct reference to the Muhammed Cartoon case, the Catholic organisation Opus Dei demands that Sony Pictures change certain central and offending passages of the upcomming movie The Da Vinci Code. Demand? How the hell could you say demand, when your cite says: > [@](#): > > The controversial Roman Catholic group Opus Dei said Tuesday it had no intention of calling for a boycott of the upcoming film The Da Vinci Code, but said it hopes the much-awaited movie could still be changed so that “there aren’t references that would hurt Catholics.” Holy cow, they hope, not demand, hope, that they won’t be portrayed as a muderous cult. They aren’t going to boycot the film. They aren’t going to demand it not be released. They aren’t going to do anything beyond ask that the producers change the movie. How in the hell you get that they are demanding anything, or that religious censorship is spreading defies all logic. You have done absolutely nothing but spread ignorance in this thread. You are the enemy of this board, and all it stands for. > [@Sam Stone](#): > > This is getting ridiculous. If they make ‘religious speech’ illegal, how in hell are you supposed to be able to criticise the excesses of religion? Would that make criticism of scientology illegal in countries that recognize it at a religion? How about Catholic priests molesting children? Off-limits? > > I never thought we could so quickly retreat back into an illiberal position on a basic freedom like the freedom of expression. What’s next, blasphemy laws? A council of clerics that gets to determine what is and isn’t acceptable to say? > > It’s even doubly shocking that this is being led by liberals. I guess they’re letting their multiculturism and ‘tolerance’ trump their beliefs in free expression. How sad. I wonder how long it will be before works like Serrano’s ‘Piss Christ’ could land the artist in jail? At least no one is overreacting from the ignorance **Rune** is spreading. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/88 "2006-02-18T21:57:06Z")
**Rune** , thanks for the info about Carsten Niebuhr. Charming. ☹ Hehehehehe. Wow! Roses of the Prophet Mohammed! I wonder how they’ll re-name a sausage-roll. 😃 **UselessGit** , Did you know that an honest-to-god Dutch yokel actually became a muslim so that his shop could stay open on sunday? He said he didn’t mind changing his name from Johan to Bilal and saw no objections to praying five times a day. He figured he was going to make more money, being a muslim. [He wasn’t married] 😛 **Kimstu** , I’m sorry I yelled at you. See: I think I’m more livid with the Islam apologists than with muslims themselves. _They_ don’t know any better. I don’t know what to do about that insane religion/regime/cult. I’m busy - with the time still left - forming a left-wing party with other concerned people. It’ll be a kind of socialist/liberal party who will welcome any immigrant, is - ofcourse - pro gay-marriage, pro-choice, etc. etc. Freedom of religion will stay the same. With ONE stipulation: Hatred in religion [as in: hatred, right here and now] will be forbidden. And we mean _forbidden_ As in: Yes, you will be send to a country of your choice, where a hate-mongering religion is normal, when you break that law. I’m pleased to say we already have some well known politicians from the LEFT-wing interested and 3 have signed up. You’ll hear about us. 🙂 [probably too late for the coming elections, though] Bravo to the 10 clogs! I had 9. 😉 **Sam Stone** , I doubt that people who defend Islam are liberals. Islam is a very right-wing religion. Nothing liberal about it. **Evil Captor** and **Rune** , Could it be that Clinton is aiming at Kofi Annan’s job? You know: More publicity, more money? On preview: My. **treis** , Thanks so much for all that usefull info. ? ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2006, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/89 "2006-02-18T21:58:55Z")
Get a grip treis, and read again. I specifically questioned, and continue to do, the passages on Clinton because of the nature of the cites. Do you know anything specific on Pakistan Daily Times to doubt their integrity, or do you just naturally assume all Pakistani papers are lying? As for Opus Dei and “demand”. This comes directly from this article from the Guardian: [Opus Dei demands cuts to Da Vinci Code](http://film.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,,1710298,00.html) - which also includes the clear reference to the Muhammed Cartoon case. ---
**Author:** ![Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/regallag_the_axe/32/445_2.png) [@Regallag\_The\_Axe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Regallag_The_Axe)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2006, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/90 "2006-02-19T02:10:10Z")
> [@gum](#): > > **Evil Captor** and **Rune** , > Could it be that Clinton is aiming at Kofi Annan’s job? > You know: More publicity, more money? IIRC the UN secretary general cnnot be from a nation that is a permenant member of the security council . ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2006, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/91 "2006-02-19T02:52:40Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > I Don’t know how reliable this newspaper is, but here’s another report: > [Clinton urges EU to convict publishers of caricatures](http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006%5C02%5C18%5Cstory_18-2-2006_pg1_7) > > Also this quote: > > - leaves one wondering what exactly Clinton thinks is a more appropriate time for violence over cartoons. Something is amiss here, I can find the "Clinton urges EU to convict publishers of caricatures” only in that Pakistan site, both the BBC and the Voice of America reports Clinton saying only that it was a mistake but no calls for conviction, he actually complained that the protesters are burning the bridges to the west. The calls for conviction came from a cleric in a rally **in the same report from the VOA** : [http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-02-17-voa28.cfm](http://www.voanews.com/english/2006-02-17-voa28.cfm) > [@](#): > > A cleric, Atta ur Rehman, who led a rally in Islamabad, the capital, said that more protests are planned in the days to come. > > “This will be going on throughout the world unless and until these [cartoonists] are brought to justice and these people apologize,” he said. So far, I think the writer of the Pakistan site used the VOA report and put words were they did not belong. Especially when one considers that the original publishers already apologized and IIRC the Danish imams accepted the apology, everyone dying now is dying for a lie, And I do think Clinton would had been aware of that apology. I don’t think this Pakistan paper is being truthful, so much for the PBUH. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2006, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/92 "2006-02-19T03:38:11Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > So far, I think the writer of the Pakistan site used the VOA report and put words were they did not belong. Especially when one considers that the original publishers already apologized and IIRC the Danish imams accepted the apology, everyone dying now is dying for a lie, And I do think Clinton would had been aware of that apology. I don’t think this Pakistan paper is being truthful, so much for the PBUH. That’s interesting, and it seems to me that this illuminates a way that we in the west could ‘fight back’ against this without A) surrendering the concept of free speech, and B) attacking Islam itself. Basically, the strategy should be to criticise and use legal methods to go after those who are inciting these riots and inflaming the situation. For example: [ul] [li]If this paper put words in Clinton’s mouth, he should come out with his own strong condemnation of what they did, and demand a retraction and an apology.[/li][li]The person who offered the bounty on the head of the cartoonist should be charged, in absentia if necessary, with soliciting homicide. Announce forthwith that if he steps foot in any country that has extradition treaties with various western nations he will be arrested.[/li][li]The Danish Imam who took those cartoons to the middle east to drum up hatred should be exposed for what he’s done - especially pointing out the fact that he himself added the three most offensive cartoons, and therefore if depicting the Prophet is categorically against Muslim law, then this guy is as guilty as the cartoonist. And since he’s of the muslim faith and the cartoonist isn’t, any religious retribution should be dealt on him first. In the meantime, I wonder if the cartoonist or the newspaper couldn’t bring charges against him for inserting those fake cartoons, claiming they were the product of that newspaper and cartoonist, and inciting hatred against them. See to it that if the guy steps foot back in Denmark he will be defending himself in court.[/li][li]We need a propaganda battle. Not groveling and promising that our nasty press will behave better in the future, but one along the lines that says that if they don’t want our values foist on them, they better not foist theirs on us. We need to explain carefully that our governments do not control our press, do not speak for them, do not command them or apologize for them. That we have learned that open debate and freedom of expression is the best way we’ve come up with to ensure that different faiths can coexist, even if that means occasionally they step on each other’s feet.[/li][li]Announce that destruction of property such as embassies will not be tolerated, and we should demand our own apologies from host countries that allow riots to occur in the streets and people to throw molotov cocktails with impugnity. Demand that the police do their job, that the guilty parties be arrested. And if they won’t do that, threaten a breakoff of diplomatic relations.[/li][li]Point out to the Pakistanis rioting that when they had an earthquake and needed help, the west pitched in without question. The U.S. military has been doing tremendous work to help the victims. Point out that public displays of ungratefulness over a bleeming cartoon could easily result in that aid vanishing. Also point out how much money pours into those countries from donations by citizens in the west, and that bad behaviour often results in such people deciding to give their charity elsewhere.[/li][/ul] We’re on the moral high ground here. It’s about time we acted like it. A collection of cartoons published in an obscure newspaper in a small country in Europe has the entire west kissing the feet of violent nutbars, for fear of inflaming the rest of the intolerant crowd. Not only is it ridiculous, but it’s essentially rewarding their medieval behaviour, which is a sure guarantee that we’ll get more of it. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2006, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/93 "2006-02-19T03:39:43Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > I Don’t know how reliable this newspaper is, but here’s another report: > [Clinton urges EU to convict publishers of caricatures](http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2006%5C02%5C18%5Cstory_18-2-2006_pg1_7) I did some searching and came up with a Yahoo News story about the same speech, [to wit:](http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060217/en_afp/quakesasiapakistanus_060217170526) Says nothing about papers being disallowed to print stories dissing relgion. Maybe a translation error of some weasel words Clinton used? He’s pretty good at tailoring his speeches to his audience without necessarily getting other audiences uproaricized. > [@](#): > > And now, as one could expect, the religious censure is spreading. With direct reference to the Muhammed Cartoon case, the Catholic organisation Opus Dei demands that Sony Pictures change certain central and offending passages of the upcomming movie The Da Vinci Code. > > [Opus Dei wants changes to The Da Vinci Code](http://www.canada.com/topics/entertainment/story.html?id=de2ae85f-983d-4e36-af67-be1a23c7cab9) All fundamentalists oppose free speech, because if your speech opposed the Word of God, it’s obviously evil and shouldn’t be permitted. Catholic, Baptist or Muslim, not one of them gives a shit about anyone else’s right to freedom of thought or speech. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2006, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/94 "2006-02-19T04:17:49Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > I did some searching and came up with a Yahoo News story about the same speech, [to wit:](http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060217/en_afp/quakesasiapakistanus_060217170526) > > Says nothing about papers being disallowed to print stories dissing relgion. Maybe a translation error of some weasel words Clinton used? He’s pretty good at tailoring his speeches to his audience without necessarily getting other audiences uproaricized. This is actually a third source that **does not** mention that “Clinton urges EU to convict publishers of caricatures”. Based on the fact that the VOA report appeared hours earlier than the Pakistan one, I don’t think a cleric appearing in that report demanding conviction and then virtually the same words appearing as coming from Clinton in the later report is a coincidence. That Pakistani paper needs to be taken to task. _Sam Stone_: I virtually agree with all your points, but there is an issue with the 5th one. Your fifth point is IMO being done, the latest deaths in Libya, Nigeria and Pakistan are now mostly caused by the local Muslim police and military trying to control the situation, late, but I think they do realize that when Clinton refers to burning bridges he is talking indirectly about the burned business and interests of the west that do benefit the Muslim world. Even they (the moderate Muslims or the ones in power) are realizing that the moderate west is not amused by what the extremists Muslims are doing right now. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2006, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/95 "2006-02-20T09:10:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Four out of 10 British Muslims want sharia law introduced into parts of the country, a survey reveals today. > > The ICM opinion poll also indicates that a fifth have sympathy with the “feelings and motives” of the suicide bombers who attacked London last July 7, killing 52 people, although 99 per cent thought the bombers were wrong to carry out the atrocity. > > Overall, the findings depict a Muslim community becoming more radical and feeling more alienated from mainstream society, even though 91 per cent still say they feel loyal to Britain. [40% of UK Muslims want Sharia Law](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/02/19/nsharia19.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/02/19/ixnewstop.html) IMHO 4 out of 10 Muslims can f\*\*\* off to whatever hot, sandy, hand-chopping part of the dark ages they prefer. I don’t want the UK to go the way of Malaysia, with dual legal systems. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2006, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/96 "2006-02-20T11:00:40Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > [40% of UK Muslims want Sharia Law](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/02/19/nsharia19.xml&sSheet=/news/2006/02/19/ixnewstop.html) > IMHO 4 out of 10 Muslims can f\*\*\* off to whatever hot, sandy, hand-chopping part of the dark ages they prefer. I don’t want the UK to go the way of Malaysia, with dual legal systems. To be accurate the report said they wanted Sharia law to apply to themselves, but I agree dual legal systems (especially two that are not complementary) for Britain would be a very bad thing. If only we could disestablish the church from the state we wouldn’t have to worry about any of this religion-in-the-law crap, at the moment it’s “one religion in the law, lots of religions wanting to be in the law” which just looks ridiculous. Are we a secular state or not? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2006, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/97 "2006-02-20T11:08:55Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > To be accurate the report said they wanted Sharia law to apply to themselves, but I agree dual legal systems (especially two that are not complementary) for Britain would be a very bad thing. If only we could disestablish the church from the state we wouldn’t have to worry about any of this religion-in-the-law crap, at the moment it’s “one religion in the law, lots of religions wanting to be in the law” which just looks ridiculous. Are we a secular state or not? It’s a stretch to say that the UK Law is based on and implementing Xtian principles, apart from the blasphemy law (and the bishops in the Lords need to go). which should go, along with religious schools and religious teaching in schools. If thre is a conflict of civilisations it’s secularism vs religion and so encompasses the assault of fundamentalist christianty on the Enlightment in the USA as well. ---
**Author:** ![Illuminatiprimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/illuminatiprimus/32/11520_2.png) [@Illuminatiprimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Illuminatiprimus)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2006, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/98 "2006-02-20T12:20:59Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > It’s a stretch to say that the UK Law is based on implementing Xtian principles… Not whilst we have Bishops sitting in the House of Lords voting on our legislation it isn’t. Or indeed whilst we have the current education settlement where Christianity is pushed in all of our schools daily in assembly (it’s statutory too). ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2006, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/99 "2006-02-20T12:25:04Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Not whilst we have Bishops sitting in the House of Lords voting on our legislation it isn’t. Or indeed whilst we have the current education settlement where Christianity is pushed in all of our schools daily in assembly (it’s statutory too). Bishops duly noted but the point is that our law is not the Xtian equivalent of sharia. It does not implement a Biblical lifestyle. I’m as opposed to the insertion of religion into our school system as you are but there is no equivalence between Sharia Law and British legal system regarding Islam and Christianity. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2006, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496/100 "2006-02-20T13:29:41Z")
> [@Illuminatiprimus](#): > > Or indeed whilst we have the current education settlement where Christianity is pushed in all of our schools daily in assembly 😕 cite, please? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-europe-really-do/344496.md?page=6)