Enough unrest and mayhem and I think the military might step in like they did in Romania. Everybody likes to say the US military is governed by ingrained norms that would prevent it from overthrowing civilian leadership, but would that still be the case when faced with a leadership that has defied all norms?
[quote=“Grrr, post:20, topic:925451, full:true”]
Historically speaking, civil war doesn’t happen when people have jobs and food in their bellies.
Also the power differential would have to be less great than it currently is for civil war to happen.
[/quote]Civil wars happen all the time when people have food and jobs. Also civil wars have happened when there are huge power differences. The North in the U.S. was vastly more powerful than the south.
ETA: I dont
't understand why that didn’t quote.
Cite.
US Civil War had nothing to do with that. Plenty of places have unemployment and famine and no civil war because there’s no course where you draw up sides.
It’s not what happens the day after. It’s what happens 2, 4, 20, 50 years down the road. There is nothing particularly unusual about this election except for the people opposing it. You overthrow this one, you may as well overthrow them all, that’s the new precedent. Trump would still call himself president, but he’d be king for life. They’d have to build the protection around him to enforce that with arms, like any tinpot country. Trump would die eventually, try to pass it on to one of his sons, but that wouldn’t work, someone stronger would take over instead. Maybe they’d run elections now and again to keep the piece.
More destruction has happened in history over dumber things. People here have gotten dumb and forgotten what they have, how fortunate they are to be where they are, what it took. If they want to destroy it they might well be able to.
I do not like to make predictions of swift and sudden change. Maybe some force could eventually revolt and re-install a democratic government. I think it’s more likely that part of the nation would secede and align with Canada. If we do go down this road, enough people will support it that part of the country will go that way, and there will be a significant amount of emigration/resettlement as we go dumbly down that road.
I hate to tell you, but this is going to happen regardless.
With the amount of insane science deniers in your country, you’re screwed on this front.
Yes, this.
Some local union federations have already passed resolutions for a general strike if Trump tried to stay in power. Also,
“The AFL-CIO’s executive council, approved a resolution on 19 October saying: ‘Democracies are not, in the last analysis, protected by judges or lawyers, reporters or publishers. The survival of democracy depends on the determination of working people to defend it. And America’s labor movement is indeed determined to defend our democratic republic.’” Unions discussing general strike if Trump refuses to accept Biden victory | US elections 2020 | The Guardian
I agree that not that many people would violently take to the streets, but it would not be insignificant. And lots of people would be willing to just not show up for work until Trump was gone, if it was a clear coup, as it would have to be at this point. I don’t think it would be civil war, it would be large scale disruption, which corporate America would not tolerate.
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The [quote= . . . ] and [/quote] tags have to each be on on a line by itself.
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Not to mention the US military would be the opposition. One old Veit Nam era F4 dumping Napalm on the crowds would quickly end almost all resistance. Once the election is stolen, it is already a police state. Given Trump’s incompetence all the worst part of police states will be evident within weeks.
All the worst parts of Atlas Shrugged would be in evidence within a year at the most. I have always marveled that she got the entire thing backwards, any Republican who ever actually read the book would realize that without a happy workforce insurrection would be constant. All the efforts would be focused upon controlling the masses and efficiencies will plummet.
Did you miss the parts where votes don’t matter any more? Once a coup has occurred law is over and done with- it will be a police state with weapons used primarily to keep the masses in line.
If that happens, if Trump siezes power illegitimately, the big question will be what will happen in a few years after Trump’s incompetence causes hunger and loss of all manufacturing. There are only two realistic answers – and one fantastical one. If the question in the OP came to be, we would either be the newest Provence of Russia, or the six newest Provence’s of China. Unless they decide to slit the spoils of defeating the corrupt ex-superpower.
Or we could become, if someone pushed Trump out of the way and grasped the power themselves we could eventually end up with a Hunger Gamesesque country.
If social security gets shut off, 64 million people will be very motivated to do something. The problem is, most are seniors or disabled so the only thing we’ll be good for is dying in the streets.
Are you saying, if push comes to shove, US troops would be willing to shoot citizens in the street? Because I don’t see that happening.
Push them down the street, out of the way, into a camp? All possible, maybe. But if there were overwhelming numbers of protestors, and I think there would be, that’s not going to be possible.
I see a scenario where the troops turn against him, literally putting him out, before they’d ever shoot citizens protesting in the street.
No, I meant becoming homeless and dying from the elements and lack of health care.
They have already done so by allowing civilians to open carry assault rifles into protest zones and then looking the other way when they shoot people. Why the hell is this being allowed? The troops won’t be shooting people, the paramilitary groups will do that for them. Just like the Brown Shirt Nazis did.
Modnote: A reminder “close to trolling” is close to calling someone a troll and should be avoided everywhere but the Pit.
This is of course just a note and not a warning.
While that might suck in a lot of ways, at least the herbs would be tasty.
The term “civil war” means two very different things:
- A general factional insurrection that has no specific geographical border.
- An attempted secession or partition along existing political boundaries by existing political entities.
The US “Civil War” (upper case) of the 1860s was the latter. And almost one of a kind historically.
The kind of “civil war” (lower case) being discussed here is the former. Which are historically very common. They’re a totally different phenomenon with different causes, effects, and actors.
Wouldn’t it be more of a Revolution than a Civil War?
The paramilitary groups would be formalized or eliminated. You are going to have civilians showing up to shoot AT the police. The police aren’t going to want a random, uncontrolled situation. They are going to want order. Random people showing up with guns is no longer going to lead to order.
Hitler eventually capped all of the “freedom fighters” (SA) that were with him in the beginning. Trump would have to do the same It’s a police state, the Second Amendment has been thrown out along with the rest of the Constitution. Whaaaaaat?!?
That’s why this is so dumb, but yes, people are stupid. USA has more private guns than anyplace else, people are stupid enough to support a movement that would have that taken away.
Trump is too incompetent to actually lead a police state, so I wonder how this would all work. He can’t have anyone reporting to him that isn’t a complete lackey, and he wouldn’t be strong enough. Someone would emerge out of the armed forces that is happy to have a police state, just not with Trump leading it. So I think over time Trump would become an empty figurehead as long as he was still useful in that role. I don’t know how long that would last.
If things more or less stayed the same for your average citizen, not much.
There’d be protests, maybe a bit of violence, lots of keyboard action.
But if things do not stay the same, and I don’t see how they could, with such a fundamental shift in our power structures, then all bets are off.
Every single night, all news media that is not in the Trump camp will be calling this illegitimate, they will be criticizing and excoriating the administration for its anti-democratic takeover. Will people stay on their couches as these reporters and journalists are arrested and imprisoned on sedition charges? Will you stay a keyboard warrior when being critical of the government online gets you an unpleasant visit from law enforcement, if places where free exchange of ideas like this messageboard are shut down?
Other countries will be loathe to continue to trade with us. Will we go to war with them to take what we want, or will we allow our economy to go into a death spiral as we are cut off from the rest of the world?
I don’t see just the overturn of the election being what starts off a civil war, but the after effects, and the other actions that an authoritarian state must take to secure itself that causes people to get off their couches.
As long as people have couches to sit on, food in their bellies, entertainment to keep them occupied, and the world at their fingertips through the internet and Amazon, I doubt many will stir up much trouble.
Put them hungry and on the streets, take away the privileges they have taken for granted, make a show of violently quashing any dissent, and that’s a different situation.
OTOH, the world of 1984 was peaceful, for the most part.
What happened to the Trump supporters that openly tried to run a Biden campaign bus off the road and rammed another car? Anything?
I don’t understand whey the Biden campaign and those attacked aren’t screaming about this.
So much of the run up to the election was all about Trump, that the Biden camp is now pivoting to the post election being all about Biden. They are purposely trying to ignore him, which, happily, is also the attitude that will aggravate Trump more than anything else.
Mod fight!