# What will happen in Gaza now that Trump won? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Tags:** trump\ **Created:** [November 6, 2024, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-happen-in-gaza-now-that-trump-won/1009762 "2024-11-06T06:38:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2024, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-happen-in-gaza-now-that-trump-won/1009762/21 "2024-11-07T07:17:09Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > …it really, really does not. …I think the evidence I’ve posted in the thread so far _overwhelmingly_ supports my position in comparison to the evidence that you’ve provided, which appears to be…nothing. > [@Babale](#): > > When it doesn’t happen, will you concede that you were wrong, or move the goal posts again? Are you planning on asking everybody who states a position here in Great Debates to pre-emptively apologise? Or are you just singling out me? And would pre-apologising (or _not_ pre-emptively apologising) bring this tangent any closer to being about Trump? > [@Babale](#): > > It is the removal of an entire ethnic group from a place to make way for someone else. Can we agree on a set of facts? - The IDF claim there are no civilians left in the north of Gaza. That it has been cleared of civilians. - Because there are no longer any civilians in the north, the IDF have said no aid (including food, water and medicine) will be allowed through to the north. - All of the humanitarian agencies are saying that this isn’t true. There are still hundreds of thousands of people, still trapped in the north. - The IDF have stated that Palestinians will not be allowed to return to their homes in the north. - The IDF are systematically destroying homes, schools, mosques, etc in the north, either by bombing, controlled demolition, bulldozer or burning them down. Do you agree with those facts? I’ve provided cites for all of these things in this thread. > [@Babale](#): > > And the Gazans aren’t going anywhere, even if Banquet Bear freaks out every time they move within Gaza. I think characterising me as “freaking out every time they move” in Gaza is unfair and not accurate, _especially_ in relation to this particular thread. And it isn’t particularly helpful. I actually should be “freaking out.” So should everybody else. Especially when what is happening on the ground, which has been described by the IASC as “imminent risk of dying from disease, famine and violence”, is being characterised by you as nothing more than “every time they move.” But I’m not freaking out. Because I think this thread is important, and I very much want to keep this thread on topic, so if you want to accuse me of “freaking out because they are moving people around” I’m happy to discuss that further in another thread if you like. Because the reality is there is nowhere for all of those people to go. Which is why, despite the claims from the IDF that all of the civilians have been “evacuated” from the north, many people have remained, risking dying from dying from disease, famine and violence. This is what is happening under the Biden administration. And I think it will continue under Trump. The area is being cleansed of Palestinians. The IDF are claiming they’ve _already_ cleansed the north. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2024, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-happen-in-gaza-now-that-trump-won/1009762/22 "2024-11-07T13:40:02Z")
I’m not interested in your gish gallop. You made a _very_ specific claim, a few months ago: that Israel was going to starve hundreds of thousands to death. Of course, that never happened; there was no starvation in any kind of large number; so now you’re making up new claims - that Israel will remove all of the Palestinians from various parts of Gaza and annex them. That, too, will not happen. And when that becomes clear, rather than admitting you were WRONG, you will be here, making new claims about the vile things Israel is going to do. Yawn. When you acknowledge that you were wrong about mass starvation in Gaza, and take a critical look at the way you consume media that led you to believe something so ridiculous would happen, then we can have a conversation about Israel’s current strategy and how I feel about it. Until then, I have 0 interest. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2024, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-happen-in-gaza-now-that-trump-won/1009762/23 "2024-11-07T14:08:48Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > You made a _very_ specific claim, a few months ago: that Israel was going to starve hundreds of thousands to death. …if I allegedly made a very specific claim, would you mind addressing that in the relevant thread? Because I’m making very specific claims in _this_ thread. That are related to the topic of this thread. > [@Babale](#): > > that Israel will remove all of the Palestinians from various parts of Gaza and annex them. My claim in _this_ thread is that the IDF have stated they have already removed all of the Palestinians from the north. _And my source is the IDF._ Do you dispute this? Or do you think the IDF are lying? And I think that under the Trump administration, they will annex northern Gaza. Its just my opinion based on the rhetoric coming from the Israeli government, the strategy they are undertaking, and analysis from people I follow. I could be wrong. But I make no apologies for stating my opinion here, especially as this thread calls for speculation on what will happen to Gaza with Trump in charge. So I’m curious to hear what _you_ think will happen. Now that the IDF are claiming that they have depopulated the north and won’t allow Palestinians to return to their homes, and they are now _destroying_ those homes, what do you think will happen next? What will happen in Gaza now Trump is in charge? > [@Babale](#): > > That, too, will not happen. Have the IDF cleared northern Gaza or not? Because if they are telling the truth, then the first part of this has _already happened_. > [@Babale](#): > > And when that becomes clear, rather than admitting you were WRONG, you will be here, making new claims about the vile things Israel is going to do. The IDF claims they have depopulated the north. Do you want to address that? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2024, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-happen-in-gaza-now-that-trump-won/1009762/24 "2024-11-07T14:19:16Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …if I allegedly made a very specific claim, would you mind addressing that in the relevant thread? > > Because I’m making very specific claims in _this_ thread. That are related to the topic of this thread. Yeah, and once again, they are sensationalist, ridiculous claims. The fact that you have a history of making such erroneous claims is _very_ relevant when analyzing your latest gem. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > My claim in _this_ thread is that the IDF have stated they have already removed all of the Palestinians from the north. _And my source is the IDF._ > > Do you dispute this? Or do you think the IDF are lying? They evacuated civilians from the north, for the second time, because they want to fight Hamas without killing the civilians Hamas likes to hide behind. When the war is over, those civilians will return to the North of Gaza. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And I think that under the Trump administration, they will annex northern Gaza. That’s completely detached from reality. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > So I’m curious to hear what _you_ think will happen. The IDF will continue to fight Hamas in northern Gaza; the more civilians comply with the evacuation order, the fewer will die, which is a good thing; eventually Hamas will either surrender or completely fall apart, at which point the war will end and Gazans will return to all parts of Gaza. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Have the IDF cleared northern Gaza or not? Because if they are telling the truth, then the first part of this has _already happened_. The evacuated northern Gaza to prevent civilian casualties, just like they did previously, and are now fighting Hamas there. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The IDF claims they have depopulated the north. Do you want to address that? I hope that civilians continue to evacuate so that civilian casualty rates are reduced. Once the war is over, they’ll go back to northern Gaza. Now that I’ve addressed all parts of your gish gallop, are you going to address the fact that your hysteric predictions about the Israel Palestine conflict have historically been wrong wrong wrong? Or are we just gonna brush past that again? ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2024, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-happen-in-gaza-now-that-trump-won/1009762/25 "2024-11-07T14:41:00Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Yeah, and once again, they are sensationalist, ridiculous claims. …in _this_ thread? I’ve provided cites for my claims in this thread. And this thread invites speculation, and I’ve speculated. > [@Babale](#): > > The fact that you have a history of making such erroneous claims is _very_ relevant when analyzing your latest gem. This alleged “history” isn’t relevant to this thread. Feel free to take it to the pit. > [@Babale](#): > > They evacuated civilians from the north, for the second time Do you believe them? Do you believe the claims that there a no civilians in the north any more? Which is why they are no longer allowing aid to the north any more? > [@Babale](#): > > because they want to fight Hamas without killing the civilians Hamas likes to hide behind. So why are the hospitals under siege in defiance of the Geneva Convention and International Humanitarian Law? Why are they destroying Jabalya? Bombing and burning down homes? Why did the IDF say that Palestinians will never be allowed to return to those homes? > [@Babale](#): > > When the war is over, those civilians will return to the North of Gaza. From my cite earlier in the thread: > **[Palestinians will not be allowed to return to homes in northern Gaza, says IDF](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/nov/06/palestinians-will-not-be-allowed-to-return-to-homes-in-northern-gaza-says-idf?CMP=twt_b-gdnnews)** > > Brig Gen Itzik Cohen said in a briefing that aid would only be allowed to enter south of the strip, not the north The title of the article is literally “Palestinians will not be allowed to return to homes in northern Gaza, says IDF.” From the article: " In a media briefing on Tuesday night, the IDF Brig Gen Itzik Cohen [told Israeli reporters](https://www.kan.org.il/content/kan-news/defense/820691/) that since troops had been forced to enter some areas twice, such as Jabaliya camp, “there is no intention of allowing the residents of the northern Gaza Strip to return to their homes”." Can you show me where he said “after the war they will be allowed to return?” And if they are destroying their homes, you know they won’t have any homes to return to? Is Israel going to build them new homes? > [@Babale](#): > > That’s completely detached from reality. You are entitled to your opinion. > [@Babale](#): > > The evacuated northern Gaza to prevent civilian casualties, just like they did previously, and are now fighting Hamas there. But they never fully “evacuated” northern Gaza the first time. That never happened. What’s changed this time is Israel are _determined_ to depopulate the north this time. They are claiming they already have, even though every humanitarian agency on the ground have said it isn’t true. Even the AP article I quoted early outright said the IDF claims are untrue. So civilians _are_ still in the north of Gaza. And aid has been effectively cut of for a month, and now Israel have said no more aid will be allowed through. > [@Babale](#): > > I hope that civilians continue to evacuate so that civilian casualty rates are reduced. You didn’t address what I said. The IDF claims they have depopulated the north. There are no civilians in the north so there is no need for aid to get sent there any more. Is that true or not? > [@Babale](#): > > Now that I’ve addressed all parts of your gish gallop This isn’t gish gallop. And you haven’t addressed the one thing I asked you to address. The IDF have claimed they have depopulated the north and because of that, they will no longer be allowing aid to go through to the north. Do you believe there are no civilians in the north? > [@Babale](#): > > Now that I’ve addressed all parts of your gish gallop, are you going to address the fact that your hysteric predictions about the Israel Palestine conflict have historically been wrong wrong wrong? Or are we just gonna brush past that again? I don’t think any of my predictions have come out wrong. Feel free to address any of these alleged predictions that I’ve made in the appropriate thread because I honestly don’t know exactly what you are talking about. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2024, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-happen-in-gaza-now-that-trump-won/1009762/26 "2024-11-07T14:43:01Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The IDF have stated that Palestinians will not be allowed to return to their homes in the north. To be clear. A brigadier general is quoted as saying that and the government has [claimed](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/nov/07/idf-israel-military-no-return-remarks-north-gaza) that he is being quoted out of context, that such is not the intent or policy. I get that some think he just said the quiet part out loud. Still the IDF as an organization continues to deny that as a long term objective. @Babale, I would guess you recognize that I am a Zionist. And I am not convinced that your portrayal of Hamas being completely responsible for the failure of completing a ceasefire agreement is completely accurate. My sense is that if Bibi wanted one accomplished terms could be found, the bodies of hostages and any left alive returned, and carnage ceased. It has not served his interests is all. I am not convinced that general said the quiet part out loud but I am not sure he didn’t either. Especially with the recent dismissal. Bibi has no interest in stopping the conflict. He has set no achievable goals for stopping it and still has no clear exit strategy articulated. Only domestic pressure will achieve that. His reluctance to do anything that might have helped Harris was an impediment too. Is there any chance that domestic pressure will increase to the necessary degree? ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2024, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-happen-in-gaza-now-that-trump-won/1009762/27 "2024-11-07T14:56:54Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Do you believe them? > > Do you believe the claims that there a no civilians in the north any more? Which is why they are no longer allowing aid to the north any more? I don’t believe YOU, since your own cite says: > [@](#): > > Israeli ground forces are getting closer to “the complete evacuation” of northern Gaza “Getting closer to the complete evacuation” is very different than “there are no civilians left”. I think getting civilians out of the areas where the heaviest fighting is taking place is a very good idea. There’s a reason why Hamas shoots at civilians who try to evacuate; they don’t want to lose their human shields. When they do, more terrorists die, fewer civilians do, and fewer Israeli soldiers die. Win win win. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > So why are the hospitals under siege in defiance of the Geneva Convention and International Humanitarian Law? Because those hospitals are being used by Hamas, in defiance of the Geneva Convention and International Humanitarian Law, which widely make provisions for the situation where an enemy group fights you from within a hospital, and makes fighting back _not actually a war crime_. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Why did the IDF say that Palestinians will never be allowed to return to those homes? They didn’t say that Palestinians will never be allowed to return to those homes; that’s yet another erroneous statement. They said that since this area had previously been evacuated, then cleared of Hamas, but now both civilians and Hamas have returned, leading to more fighting and more civilian casualties - this time the evacuation will continue until Hamas surrenders and the war is over. The IDF didn’t say that they’d never be allowed to return. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > And if they are destroying their homes, you know they won’t have any homes to return to? Is Israel going to build them new homes? Despite breathless proclamations that 60% of houses are “damaged or destroyed”, where “damaged” could mean broken windows, most of Gaza is not destroyed. The parts that _are_ will be rebuilt, likely by Egyptian companies who are already salivating at the prospect, but much of the money will come from Israel, yes. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > But they never fully “evacuated” northern Gaza the first time. That never happened. Right, because Hamas shot at people trying to evacuate and useful idiots in the West fed the narrative that if the Palestinians leave Israel will take the land forever. Great job driving up civilian casualties there. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > What’s changed this time is Israel are _determined_ to depopulate the north this time. We really, really aren’t. But you can keep insisting we are until the war ends without taking Gaza, at which point you’ll seamlessly switch to a new narrative. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > This isn’t gish gallop. And you haven’t addressed the one thing I asked you to address. That’s because you’re presenting me with a pyramid of false statements built on a foundation of nonsense. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The IDF have claimed they have depopulated the north Per your own article, that’s not true. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > and because of that, they will no longer be allowing aid to go through to the north The reason they are sending the aid in to the south and not the north is because they want civilians to get out of the north where the heavy fighting currently is. It’s really not that hard to figure out. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2024, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-happen-in-gaza-now-that-trump-won/1009762/28 "2024-11-07T15:02:00Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > To be clear. A brigadier general is quoted as saying that and the government has [claimed](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/nov/07/idf-israel-military-no-return-remarks-north-gaza) that he is being quoted out of context, that such is not the intent or policy. …I’ve cited two people, on the record, IDF Brig Gen Itzik Cohen and from the AP article Elad Goren, from COGAT, who both said the same thing. The spokesman from your article is unnamed, and doesn’t explain exactly how the statement was taken out of context. It doesn’t say much at all, to be honest. Again: I’ll direct you to the joint statement from the IASC, where they state, unequivocally, “The entire Palestinian population in North Gaza is at imminent risk of dying from disease, famine and violence.” We’ve got footage of the complete destruction in the refugee camps. Of the burned out houses. There will be nowhere for people to return to. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2024, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-happen-in-gaza-now-that-trump-won/1009762/29 "2024-11-07T15:02:24Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > @Babale, I would guess you recognize that I am a Zionist. And I am not convinced that your portrayal of Hamas being completely responsible for the failure of completing a ceasefire agreement is completely accurate. My sense is that if Bibi wanted one accomplished terms could be found, the bodies of hostages and any left alive returned, and carnage ceased. It has not served his interests is all. When you say “ceasefire”, what are you referring to? A long term end to the fighting, or a temporary pause? Israel has offered to trade hostages, or bodies of hostages, for a temporary ceasefire, dozens of times by now. Hamas is entirely at fault for this not coming to pass. A longer term cessation of hostilities requires an agreement on whether or not Hamas will remain in charge of Gaza or not, and there are currently irreconcilable differences there that have nothing to do with Bibi. No Israeli prime minister is going to agree to completely end the fighting while Hamas remains the ruling power in Gaza. After Oct 7, that’s impossible. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2024, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-happen-in-gaza-now-that-trump-won/1009762/30 "2024-11-07T15:03:51Z")
> [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > …I’ve cited two people, on the record, IDF Brig Gen Itzik Cohen and from the AP article Elad Goren, from COGAT, who both said the same thing. They quite literally did not, though. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2024, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-happen-in-gaza-now-that-trump-won/1009762/31 "2024-11-07T15:04:14Z")
> [@Sylvanz](#): > > You know I gotta’ ask: how many people, including young children, have to die before you admit that this desruction is a bad thing? I’ve seen some quotes from West Bank, “settlers.” Who quite proudly proclaimed all Palestinians, must be removed (at least from the West Bank) or killed > > This is all immoral and wrong. The way ethnic cleansing and genocide keep happening, is that people who should know better, defend it/deny it’s happening. “War is cruelty, and you cannot refine it; and those who brought war into our Country deserve all the curses and maledictions a people can pour out.” – Gen. William Tecumseh Sherman It is not realistic to think that Israel could have responded to the Hamas attacks with essentially a giant civilian police raid. Hamas deliberately set up their own people as involuntary martyrs, an entire population of human shields. Israel simply got tired of being suckers. The fighting will end when Israel is satisfied that Gaza is no longer a staging area for invasions and massacres of Israelis. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2024, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-happen-in-gaza-now-that-trump-won/1009762/32 "2024-11-07T15:25:23Z")
(Too late to update previous.) Heck, read Sherman’s entire letter on the subject– he could almost be talking about Israel and Gaza. [https://cwnc.omeka.chass.ncsu.edu/items/show/23](https://cwnc.omeka.chass.ncsu.edu/items/show/23) ETA: > The fighting will end when Israel is satisfied that Gaza is no longer a staging area for invasions and massacres of Israelis Or more to the point, when Israel is satisfied that Gaza will not immediately resume being a staging area the moment the IDF withdraws. . ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2024, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-happen-in-gaza-now-that-trump-won/1009762/33 "2024-11-07T15:52:30Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > There’s a reason why Hamas shoots at civilians who try to evacuate; they don’t want to lose their human shields. …the people that are shooting Palestinians as they are evacuating are the IDF. > **[Palestinians evacuating northern Gaza say they are being shot at by Israeli...](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/08/middleeast/gaza-jabalya-idf-shooting-intl/index.html)** > > Palestinians fleeing sites of Israel’s renewed military operation in northern Gaza are being shot at as they evacuate, according to residents there and footage shared with CNN documenting their journey. > [@](#): > > Palestinians fleeing sites of Israel’s [renewed military operation](http://www.cnn.com/2024/10/06/middleeast/israel-military-northern-gaza-hamas-intl) in northern Gaza are being shot at as they evacuate, according to residents there and footage shared with CNN documenting their journey. > > Mohammad Sultan, 28, said he and his family fled their house in Jabalya in northern Gaza “due to the intense and [continuous bombardments](https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/israel-gaza-lebanon-war-10-08-24-intl-hnk/index.html) in the area.” When he went back to retrieve food, water and blankets, he and other civilians were fired at, he said. > > “Drones were firing at everyone passing by on the road,” Sultan told CNN. “Three people were shot right in front of me. My brother and I tried to help the injured get to the hospitals, but a little girl was shot in the neck, and her father was also injured.” The people that are using human shields are the IDF: > **[The Israeli military has used Palestinians as human shields in Gaza, soldier...](https://edition.cnn.com/2024/10/24/middleeast/palestinians-human-shields-israel-military-gaza-intl/index.html)** > > The Israeli military has forced Palestinians to enter potentially booby-trapped houses and tunnels in Gaza to avoid putting its troops in harm’s way, according to an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldier and five former detainees who said they were... > [@](#): > > The [Israeli military](https://www.cnn.com/2024/10/15/politics/us-israel-gaza-humanitarian-situation-letter/index.html) has forced Palestinians to enter potentially booby-trapped houses and tunnels in [Gaza](https://www.cnn.com/world/middleeast/israel) to avoid putting its troops in harm’s way, according to an Israel Defense Forces (IDF) soldier and five former detainees who said they were victims of the practice. > > The soldier, who said his unit held two Palestinian prisoners for the explicit purpose of using them as human shields to probe dangerous places, said the practice was prevalent among Israeli units in Gaza. > > “We told them to enter the building before us,” he explained. “If there are any booby traps, they will explode and not us.” “Every accusation is a confession” has gone beyond parody now. > [@Babale](#): > > When they do, more terrorists die, fewer civilians do, and fewer Israeli soldiers die. Win win win. [https://www.savethechildren.net/news/gaza-massacre-reportedly-kills-50-children-underscoring-urgent-need-global-intervention-save](https://www.savethechildren.net/news/gaza-massacre-reportedly-kills-50-children-underscoring-urgent-need-global-intervention-save) > [@](#): > > **RAMALLAH, 2 NOVEMBER** – Attacks overnight that reportedly [killed 50 children](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/11/2/live-israel-massacres-84-in-gaza-air-strikes-kill-dozens-across-lebanon) in besieged northern Gaza demand international intervention, as the relentless pattern of mass attacks on civilians by Israeli forces continues, Save the Children said. > > The attacks yesterday were the latest in a series of strikes on northern Gaza that the UN has described as causing an [apocalyptic situation](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/north-gaza-apocalyptic-everyone-imminent-risk-death-warns-un-2024-11-01/). They aren’t “killing terrorists.” The reports coming out from the refugee camps are consistent: entire families are being wiped out. > **[Israel has wiped out 902 entire families in Gaza: Know their names](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/longform/2024/10/8/know-their-names-palestinian-families-killed-in-israeli-attacks-on-gaza)** > > At least 902 entire families have been erased from Gaza’s civil registry as Israel’s assault enters its second year. > [@](#): > > ### Every day in Gaza, on average: > > - 115 people are killed - that’s one out of every 55 people living in Gaza > - 46 are children > - 31 are women > - 38 men > > - 266 people are injured - that’s one out of every 23 people in Gaza > - 27 people are missing under the rubble > - 5,480 people are forced from their homes How many terrorists do you think are in Gaza? And how many of them are children? > [@](#): > > Israel’s attacks on Gaza have wiped out 902 entire families, erasing them from the civil registry. > > This means every single one of their members was killed over the past year. > > Additionally, at least 1,364 Palestinian families were left with only one surviving member, while 3,472 Palestinian families were reduced to just two surviving members. Entire bloodlines gone. Were everyone in the family terrorists? > [@Babale](#): > > Because those hospitals are being used by Hamas, in defiance of the Geneva Convention and International Humanitarian Law, which widely make provisions for the situation where an enemy group fights you from within a hospital, and makes fighting back _not actually a war crime_. From the AP: > [@](#): > > The AP spent months gathering accounts of the raids on al-Awda, Indonesian and Kamal Adwan Hospitals, interviewing more than three dozen patients, witnesses and medical and humanitarian workers as well as Israeli officials. > > It found that Israel has presented little or even no evidence of a significant Hamas presence in those cases. The AP presented a dossier listing the incidents reported by those it interviewed to the Israeli military spokesman’s office. The office said it could not comment on specific events. > **[Still wrecked from past Israeli raids, hospitals in northern Gaza come under...](https://apnews.com/world-news/still-wrecked-from-past-israeli-raids-hospitals-in-northern-gaza-come-under-attack-again-00000192eebfd414a79fffbf88cc0000)** > > They were built to be places of healing. But once again, three hospitals in northern Gaza are encircled by Israeli troops and under fire. Hospitals _can_ lose their protection under certain circumstances. But here’s the thing. You can’t keep those circumstances _secret_. That isn’t how International Humanitarian Law actually works. There i_s no evidence_ that Hamas are fighting from the hospitals in the north. The warcrimes here are all on the IDF. > [@Babale](#): > > this time the evacuation will continue until Hamas surrenders and the war is over. Then why are they systematically destroying those homes? > [@Babale](#): > > Despite breathless proclamations that 60% of houses are “damaged or destroyed”, where “damaged” could mean broken windows, most of Gaza is not destroyed. The damage to Gaza is significant and ongoing. > **[These maps and images show what's left of Gaza, 1 year into the Israel-Hamas war](https://www.npr.org/2024/10/09/g-s1-27175/israel-hamas-war-gaza-map)** > > Israel's war with Hamas has destroyed much of Gaza. Recent analyses find that nearly 60% of buildings, nearly 70% of orchards and 68% of roads have been damaged or destroyed by the conflict. > [@Babale](#): > > Right, because Hamas shot at people trying to evacuate and useful idiots in the West fed the narrative that if the Palestinians leave Israel will take the land forever. Great job driving up civilian casualties there. The estimated 41,000 dead people in Gaza so far were not killed by “Hamas shooting at people trying to evacuate.” There weren’t ever more than a handful of alleged reports of this happening early in the war. But its a bizarre thing to bring up now in the context of this particular thread. > [@Babale](#): > > We really, really aren’t. But you can keep insisting we are until the war ends without taking Gaza, at which point you’ll seamlessly switch to a new narrative. This thread invites speculation. And that’s what I’m doing. I think the evidence overwhelming suggests that I’ll be proven correct. I hope to actually be proven wrong. > [@Babale](#): > > That’s because you’re presenting me with a pyramid of false statements built on a foundation of nonsense. Nope. > [@Babale](#): > > Per your own article, that’s not true. Conceded. Elad Goren claimed in the AP article that “areas like Beit Hanoun and Beit Lahiya” have no population left. Is that true? > [@Babale](#): > > The reason they are sending the aid in to the south and not the north is because they want civilians to get out of the north where the heavy fighting currently is. It’s really not that hard to figure out. There are existing humanitarian corridors. There are sick, injured and dying people in those hospitals and with the refugee camps being bombed daily, who else is going to treat the people who need treatment? Under what legal theory is denying humanitarian resupply of the hospitals in the north in order to depopulate the north are you operating from? They are incapable of escaping. Requests to transfer patients are regularly being denied. And the sick and the injured keep coming. There is absolutely no reason to stop the aid going through. ---
**Author:** ![OldOlds](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/a3d4f5/32.png) [@OldOlds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldOlds)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2024, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-happen-in-gaza-now-that-trump-won/1009762/34 "2024-11-07T16:56:37Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Not unless Netanyahu is ousted - he has been firmly against settlements in Gaza (to the annoyance of some of his allies). You seem to be taking Netanyahu at his word. I find that interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2024, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-happen-in-gaza-now-that-trump-won/1009762/35 "2024-11-07T17:06:53Z")
> [@OldOlds](#): > > You seem to be taking Netanyahu at his word. Not at all. I’m just familiar enough with Israel and the political situation there to know that it’s completely unrealistic. Netanyahu’s base doesn’t want to annex Gaza. The base of his weakest coalition members does, but he’s not going to piss off the majority of his coalition with something they are so against to appease Ben Gvir and Smotrich, whose polling results Netanyahu is well aware of. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2024, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-happen-in-gaza-now-that-trump-won/1009762/36 "2024-11-07T21:29:38Z")
As at interested bystander and the OP, I believe it would make this thread more interesting if you responded to the sites Banquet Bear is offering with sites of your own instead of a bunch of snide comments (“sensationalist”, “gish gallop”, “yawn”, etc…). It seems clear that you and **Banquet\_Bear** have a history, but I would prefer you two get a room and work it out rather than _you_ shit all over this thread. They have brought a bunch of evidence from a variety of news sources that backs up what they are saying and you have brought nothing but your opinion, which does not seem to have any obvious foundation, and the previously mentioned attitude. I am an American that has been actively avoiding the tragedy that has been unfolding in Israel and Gaza. I have been avoiding it because it pisses me off for all sorts of reasons. This thread is one of the few times I have actively sought out information (I know, the dope is barely a step above social media, but at least they have been fighting ignorance since 1973), and the only one bringing information to this thread is Banquet\_Bear. So put up or shut up. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2024, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-happen-in-gaza-now-that-trump-won/1009762/37 "2024-11-07T21:34:43Z")
Is there starvation in Gaza **Babale**? ([starvation in gaza - Google Search](https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=starvation+in+gaza)) I don’t know, but there sure seem to be a lot of sites that claim there is. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2024, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-happen-in-gaza-now-that-trump-won/1009762/38 "2024-11-07T21:52:28Z")
> [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > I don’t know, but there sure seem to be a lot of sites that claim there is. There are a lot of sites that have been claiming that for a year now. How many people have starved to death in Gaza? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2024, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-happen-in-gaza-now-that-trump-won/1009762/39 "2024-11-07T22:14:31Z")
> [@Babale](#): > > Israel may not make as many ceasefire offers, but that hardly matters because Hamas keeps rejecting them anyways. Good point. Biden pushed through two peace deals through the UN, Hamas rejected both. I fell sorry for those people- Netanyahu doesnt care about them, nor does Hamas. I think Israel will be getting some of the aid we are currently sending to Ukraine. > [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > In general, I expect the Middle East to actually turn out fairly well under a Trump presidency, even if it’s all for the wrong reasons. But, by that, I mean that I expect Israel and Saudi Arabia to become dominant and start making the region more stable, minus Iran. The Gazans are, likely, going to be the sacrificial lamb to make that happen. This is pretty well thought out. > [@DSeid](#): > > How much pressure is on Bibi to get how ever any of the hostages are left alive home? Are any left alive? Remember, during one failed negotiation, Hamas offer was to send back the bodies first, counting them as hostages returned in exchange for Hamas prisoners. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > First off: it’s pretty important to understand, before we look at what could happen under Trump, what is going on, _right now_, under the Biden administration. Biden brokered two cease fire deals thru the UN, at least one of which was accepted by Israel. Hamas rejected both. So, before we blame the Biden administration, maybe we need to ask why Hamas doesnt care about its own people. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > The Democrats would at the very least pay lip service to international law. Trump? > > He’s going to _smash_ it. Right. Biden _tried_. He even built a floating dock to get aid in and approved billions in Aid for the palestinians in Gaza. We even had a thread about what Biden could do-legally- to do more in Gaza- and the answer was **“Nothing”-** legally. The President cant legally refused to send aid that congress has budgeted- yes, he can slow it down a bit, but that’s it. > [@Lumpy](#): > > I think you’re vastly overestimating the influence that the US president has on Israeli policies. If Biden/Harris could have more or less dictated an Israeli withdrawal from Gaza on an “or else” basis, it would probably have happened. Yep. Now, if _Congress approved_, the USA could cut off all aid Military Aid to Israel until they agreed. But not the White House by itself. > [@Babale](#): > > Of course the destruction is a bad thing. That’s why Hamas’ should release the hostages and surrender. Well, at least accept one of the two UN cease fire deals. > [@Banquet\_Bear](#): > > Do you agree with those facts? I’ve provided cites for all of these things in this thread. Those facts dont really concern this thread. We all agree that the situation for the people of Gaza is really bad. Now, _whose fault is that?_ Biden? Nope, he has done everything he legally can. Netanyahu? Certainly, he is a bigoted power-mad crook. Hamas? They have refused even UN brokered ceasefire deals. So, Yeah, we can put some of the blame on Bibi, but also we have to blame Hamas. No ceasefire deal can go thru as long as Hamas rejects them all. > [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](#): > > I believe it would make this thread more interesting if you responded to the sites Banquet Bear Her cites are mostly how bad it is. We agree it is bad. _The question here is how much worse will it get under trump as opposed to Biden?_ It isnt to rehash the arguments on how bad Israel is treating the Gazans. Or to count how many have starved. Bad stuff will continue in Gaza as long as Hamas refuses any and all ceasefire deals and OR long as Netanyahu is in power. Hamas could get a ceasefire in a day. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_fun_ball/32/17664_2.png) [@Happy\_Fun\_Ball](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Fun_Ball)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2024, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-happen-in-gaza-now-that-trump-won/1009762/40 "2024-11-07T22:40:43Z")
I don’t know, but I would bet it is more than 0. Do you know? According to [the Integrated Food Security Phase Classification (IPC)](https://www.ipcinfo.org/ipc-country-analysis/details-map/en/c/1157985/?iso3=PSE), over 130,000 people are currently experiencing Phase 5 (Catastrophe) levels of food insecurity. This is defined as “_Households in this phase are experiencing an extreme lack of food, leading to alarmingly high acute malnutrition rates among children under five, significant excess mortality and an imminent risk of starvation._” Unfortunately, they do not define what “significant excess mortality” means, so it is hard for me to come up with an estimate. Still with more than 86% of the population of Gaza ranked at stage 3 or higher, it seems likely there have been some deaths. Here is how they currently rate the region: > [@](#): > > Between September and October 2024, the whole territory is classified in IPC Phase 4 (Emergency). About 1.84 million people across the Gaza Strip are experiencing high levels of acute food insecurity classified in IPC Phase 3 (Crisis) or above, including nearly 133,000 people facing catastrophic food insecurity (IPC Phase 5) and 664,000, in IPC Phase 4 (Emergency). Acute Malnutrition is at serious levels (IPC AMN Phase 3), ten times higher than before the escalation of the hostilities. > > Nearly the entire population has been displaced multiple times, often under continued shelling and aerial bombardments. Many households, especially the most vulnerable, are unable to relocate or find safe shelter. The majority are living in temporary makeshift camps with an alarming density of almost 40,000 people per square kilometer. The evacuation orders and the military offensive, which further intensified in the past weeks have significantly disrupted humanitarian operations, and repeated displacements have steadily worn-down people’s ability to cope and access food, water and medicine, deepening the vulnerability of entire communities. > > A temporary surge of humanitarian assistance and commercial supply between May and August 2024 partly alleviated acute food insecurity and malnutrition conditions. However, September saw the lowest volume of commercial and humanitarian supplies entering Gaza since March 2024. This sharp decline will profoundly limit food availability and the ability of families to feed themselves and access services in the next few months. The upcoming winter season is expected to bring colder temperatures along with rain and potential flooding. Seasonal diseases and increasingly limited access to water and health services are likely to worsen acute malnutrition, especially in densely populated areas, where the risk of epidemics is already high. > > The population classified in IPC Phase 5 (Catastrophe) is expected to nearly triple in the coming months. Between November 2024 and April 2025, almost 2 million people, more than 90 percent of the population, are classified in IPC Phase 3 (Crisis) or above, of which 345,000 people (16 percent) are in Catastrophe (IPC Phase 5), and 876,000 people (41 percent) in Emergency (IPC Phase 4). Although less populated, Rafah and the northern governorates will likely face more severe acute food insecurity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-happen-in-gaza-now-that-trump-won/1009762.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-happen-in-gaza-now-that-trump-won/1009762.md?page=3)