# What will Michael Moore's legacy be ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 9, 2004, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-michael-moores-legacy-be/273870 "2004-11-09T18:21:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-michael-moores-legacy-be/273870/41 "2004-11-10T02:44:05Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > My bolding. Cognitive dissonance is most often caused by fautly assumptions. > > Don’t confuse the general tenor of this board with the that of the US. And even then, it would be a gross exageration to say that this board is FULL of “scared democrats…”. Thank you John! I initially supported Bush, immediately following 9/11. I swallowed what he said, hook, line and sinker. I did my share of attacking anyone who was against him. However, when the shock wore off and I started to look at what he was doing (and not doing), and how his stories kept changing, I didn’t get scared, I got angry. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-michael-moores-legacy-be/273870/42 "2004-11-10T02:44:49Z")
Michael Moore’s legacy is sitting in the White House. And will, for the next four years. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Truth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@The\_Truth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Truth)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-michael-moores-legacy-be/273870/43 "2004-11-10T03:49:14Z")
Michael Moore’s legacy is that he will be known as the obese person with a baseball cap who made a deceptive, wartime propaganda film, which failed miserably at it’s goal of unseating the President of the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-michael-moores-legacy-be/273870/44 "2004-11-10T13:00:54Z")
Xtisme I agree that MM lost the opportunity to make a real documentary… but would a serious and well researched documentary have gotten as much attention as it did ? I don’t think so. In a sense MM is using the same language Bush is… he throws perceived ideas and doesn’t defend or base them in facts. For good or bad he managed to get a lot of attention. His film didn’t get more traction because all sorts of media made sure his film was labeled “Moore hates America” or whatever. How many Bush supporters actually bothered to see his film ? Its not his fault if he didn’t convert enough Bushites… they were shielded by their media from seeing or beleiving anything. Naturally critical people saw MM’s defects… Now that the election is over… I think Moore got the “scared nation” idea very right… people voted scared and wanted Bush to protect them. His idea of a scared america seems pretty correct to me… even if he had a lot of rubbish in the rest of the film. Hopefully MM will learn from his mistakes… and make something more balanced and truthful… I don’t think we’ve seen the last from him. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-michael-moores-legacy-be/273870/45 "2004-11-10T20:15:43Z")
> [@The Truth](#): > > Michael Moore’s legacy is that he will be known as the obese person with a baseball cap who made a deceptive, wartime propaganda film, which failed miserably at it’s goal of unseating the President of the United States. Two points of note: 1. All of the factual claims made by Moore in **Fahrenheit 9/11** have been documented, and remain standing as accurate despite numerous efforts by right-wing demagogues to claim otherwise. 2. How many people complaining about Moore’s “deceptive” practices also complained about the Bush Administration’s deceptive tying of Saddam Hussein with the 9/11 attacks? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2004, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-michael-moores-legacy-be/273870/46 "2004-11-10T20:25:57Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > 1. All of the factual claims made by Moore in Fahrenheit 9/11 have been documented, and remain standing as accurate despite numerous efforts by right-wing demagogues to claim otherwise. Really…and who decided that these things have remained standing as accurate, rjung? You? :rolleyes: Besides, MM is the master of the ‘not lie’…i.e. he doesn’t come right out and tell a lie (usually), but he works to manipulate the subject and material to imply something (that he doesn’t come out and say) which is complete and utter bullshit. As a for instance, his various implications about the bin Laden family leaving the US were FACTUALLY true, but what you were supposed to get out of it was complete bullshit…and tin foil BS at that (you probably swallowed it whole if I was to guess). I don’t want to get into the movie though and hijack the thread (I had to take a shower afterward merely watching the thing)…besides there are numerous threads about his movies on the board. > [@rjung](#): > > 1. How many people complaining about Moore’s “deceptive” practices also complained about the Bush Administration’s deceptive tying of Saddam Hussein with the 9/11 attacks? I’m stunned…I’d think you’d be cheering Bush. After all, he’s just using the same techniques as MM did. He’s telling ‘not lies’, things that aren’t factually untrue but that IMPLY something that is complete bullshit. You seem to give MM a pass on this…why not Bush? 🙂 -XT ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-michael-moores-legacy-be/273870/47 "2004-11-11T00:21:07Z")
> [@Rashak Mani](#): > > Still Xtisme… in a country full of scared democrats, independents and liberals… MM was was a lonely protest voice… or should liberals always be pussies ? 🙂 A lonely protest voice? If all the liberal Hollywood activists were lined end-to-end they would reach clear around Michael Moore. And our liberals aren’t pussies (except for Michael Moore, and he’s more of a dick). ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-michael-moores-legacy-be/273870/48 "2004-11-11T00:30:25Z")
> [@the raindog](#): > > So, basically a partisan, loud mouthed, shrill, buffoon? That gets my vote. ---
**Author:** ![malkavia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malkavia/32/5621_2.png) [@malkavia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/malkavia)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-michael-moores-legacy-be/273870/49 "2004-11-11T00:41:51Z")
> [@Starving Artist](#): > > He stumbles and bumbles, redirects, makes false attributions and denies the obvious…all with a smug, self-satisfied smirk on his face. So you’re implying that he’s got a fairly good shot at Commander in Chief, yes? ---
**Author:** ![legion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/838e76/32.png) [@legion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/legion)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-michael-moores-legacy-be/273870/50 "2004-11-11T00:42:57Z")
> [@kingpengvin](#): > > Those who whine about how biased his films are are out to lunch as to what a documantary is. It is the film makers take on a real life topic that does not use actors and are not pre scripted Not according to the [Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences](http://www.oscar.org/74academyawards/rules/rule12.html): "RULE TWELVE SPECIAL RULES FOR THE DOCUMENTARY AWARD I. DEFINITION 1. A documentary film is defined as a non-fiction motion picture dealing creatively with cultural, artistic, historical, social, scientific, economic or other subjects. It may be photographed in actual occurrence, or may employ partial re-enactment, stock footage, stills, animation, stop-motion or other techniques, as long as the emphasis is on factual content and not on fiction." ---
**Author:** ![Sample\_the\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-michael-moores-legacy-be/273870/51 "2004-11-11T00:45:11Z")
Consider this [article](http://www.spinsanity.org/columns/20040702.html) from Spinsanity, hardly a right-wing outfit, which begins: > [@Spinsanity](#): > > Michael Moore’s career as a rabble-rousing populist has been marked by a frequent pattern of dissembling and factual inaccuracy. ---
**Author:** ![Sample\_the\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-michael-moores-legacy-be/273870/52 "2004-11-11T00:53:50Z")
> [@kingpengvin](#): > > Those who whine about how biased his films are are out to lunch as to what a documantary is. It is the film makers take on a real life topic that does not use actors and are not pre scripted. Moore fails even by that standard. For example, he [staged](http://www.spinsanity.org/post.html?2002_11_24_archive.html#85712328) the “gun from the bank” scene in **Bowling for Columbine**. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-michael-moores-legacy-be/273870/53 "2004-11-11T00:57:37Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Really…and who decided that these things have remained standing as accurate, rjung? The right-wing media, I’d imagine – if Moore had actually made a factual error in his high-profile incindiary movie, I have no doubt that it’d be trumpeted across Fox News, The Drudge Report, and Rush Limbaugh’s HappyFunTime Hour in a New York second. The fact that the conservative insta-pundits such as yourself _haven’t_ been able to puncture the facts is a sign of their robustness. QED. > [@xtisme](#): > > I’m stunned…I’d think you’d be cheering Bush. After all, he’s just using the same techniques as MM did. He’s telling ‘not lies’, things that aren’t factually untrue but that IMPLY something that is complete bullshit. You seem to give MM a pass on this…why not Bush? 🙂 [1,100+ American casualties in Iraq.](http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/world/2893655) But then, I actually care about the troops, unlike the President. ---
**Author:** ![Sample\_the\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-michael-moores-legacy-be/273870/54 "2004-11-11T01:02:40Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > The fact that the conservative insta-pundits such as yourself _haven’t_ been able to puncture the facts is a sign of their robustness. QED. You don’t know what you’re talking about. Forbes magazine, CNN (Lou Dobbs), Washington Monthly, Newsweek, and others have attacked Moore’s lies. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-michael-moores-legacy-be/273870/55 "2004-11-11T02:13:18Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > [1,100+ American casualties in Iraq.](http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/world/2893655) But then, I actually care about the troops, unlike the President. And yet, the soldiers within your sphere of concern voted overwhelmingly for President Bush. That’s GOTTA hurt. ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-michael-moores-legacy-be/273870/56 "2004-11-11T05:42:07Z")
Michael _who_?? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-michael-moores-legacy-be/273870/57 "2004-11-11T06:23:09Z")
> [@Sample\_the\_Dog](#): > > You don’t know what you’re talking about. Forbes magazine, CNN (Lou Dobbs), Washington Monthly, Newsweek, and others have attacked Moore’s lies. Whining that Moore made Bush look like an idiot is not the same as proving Moore was wrong. Or, to put it another way, lots of folks have charged Moore with lying in **Fahrenheit 9/11;** but none have been able to make those charges stick. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-michael-moores-legacy-be/273870/58 "2004-11-11T11:43:04Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > Whining that Moore made Bush look like an idiot is not the same as proving Moore was wrong. > > Or, to put it another way, lots of folks have charged Moore with lying in **Fahrenheit 9/11;** but none have been able to make those charges stick. Moore was wrong in many counts… and most of his justifications are made by saying he cited newspapers or other media. Just because a newspaper said it… don’t make it true. It does exempt MM from direct blame though. The problem is that people don’t discuss what he was right. So hopefully he will make a much more solid film next time… without so many “holes”. Otherwise his films are funny and have impact… ---
**Author:** ![Sample\_the\_Dog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8797f3/32.png) [@Sample\_the\_Dog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sample_the_Dog)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-michael-moores-legacy-be/273870/59 "2004-11-11T12:27:25Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > lots of folks have charged Moore with lying in **Fahrenheit 9/11;** but none have been able to make those charges stick. What would qualify in your mind as making the “charges stick”? Are you saying that the Spinsanity articles are inaccurate? These do not complain “that Moore made Bush look like an idiot”. (Spinsanity published an entire book attacking Bush.) They deal very concretely with Moore’s distortions and factual errors. You seem to have the opinion that if you aren’t convinced, it ain’t so. You remind me of one of my bulldogs, who will stick his head under a table and close his eyes when he wants to hide, apparently believing that if he refuses to see it, it ain’t there. ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2004, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-michael-moores-legacy-be/273870/60 "2004-11-11T18:22:44Z")
Speaking of Spinsanity, you should add to Michael’s legacy his existence as a target for political analysis groups to nitpick and equivocate his work with the far worse excesses of his opponents in order to appear “balanced”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-michael-moores-legacy-be/273870.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-michael-moores-legacy-be/273870.md?page=4)