Spinsanity admitted that the facts in F911 were correct; they disagreed with the conclusions and opinions Moore drew from those facts. Even you can see that arguing Moore’s opinions are “wrong” is right up there with debating what the flavor of purple is.
Nonsense. Their objections are hardly nitpicks (see below). And crying “Well, the other guys are worse” (even if it’s true) does not change the fact that MM lies and misleads.
(FWIW, I think Bush is a dangerous fool who thinks nothing of lying to the public. He’s an embarrassment to the GOP and the nation.)
This is blatantly untrue. Spinsanity accuses MM of stringing facts and speculations together in such a way as to deliberately mislead the audience.
This is not at all the same as disagreeing with conclusions drawn from properly presented facts.
Spinsanity repeatedly uses the term “lie” to describe MM’s statements in his work. Among Spinsanity’s points:
F9/11
Note that they are not disagreeing with MM’s conclusions and opinions, as you claim, but are directly accusing him of intentionally creating a false impression.
Again, Spinsanity is accusing MM of willfully misleading his viewers about a point of fact. In other words, he juxtaposes decontextualized data with his own commentary in such a way as to make his audience believe something that is not true.
Again, MM’s “opinion” is disingenuous, omitting key information in an effort to deceive.
Once more, this isn’t an “opinion” or “conclusion” – it’s a deliberate omission of fact intended to deceive.
The point is, MM has simply become a more savvy deceiver, using sleight of hand to induce his viewers to come to their own erroneous conclusions, rather than indulging in blatant lies, as he used to do:
Bowling for Columbine
Roger and Me
Stupid White Men
The list goes on and on…
So, back to the OP… When all the dust settles and the names of Bush and Clinton evoke no more passion than the names of Polk and Cleveland do today, Moore will be rightly viewed as a man who debased the documentary form for political and personal gain. He will become a textbook case of how not to produce documentary films.
Great post Sample_the_Dog…pretty much what I was saying but didn’t want to get into all the gory details. I (of course) also agree with your assessment also.
Thought I’d make rjungs day though…MM is appearently thinking of doing a sequel. Enjoy rjung!
-XT
Oh, totally missed this:
I already said (if you had of read my post) that MM didn’t make (many) FACTUAL errors…but that he used slight of hand and viewer ignorance (not pointing any fingers here :)) to mislead. In other words he told ‘not lies’. The fact that it HAS been punctured (hell, its even been punctured on factcheck.org man) and you can’t seem to grasp that is more telling about YOU, wouldn’t you think?
BTW, when exactly did I become a ‘conservative insta-pundit’?? I didn’t even know I was a conservative (well, ok…I’m a fiscal conservative I suppose), let alone an ‘insta-pundit’. 
-XT
I especially love this part: “Fifty-one percent of the American people lacked information [in this election] and we want to educate and enlighten them,” Moore was quoted in Thursday’s edition of Variety. “They weren’t told the truth. We’re communicators and it’s up to us to start doing it now.”
Gee, just think…by this logic if only he could have “informed” and “enlightened” all 100% of us, we would have had the first election in the country’s history where 100% of the population voted for the same candidate.
Hey, Mikey…we heard it, we saw it for what it was, we saw you for what you are. You’re lucky the election wasn’t more lopsided.
What you don’t realize is that people (most people, anyway) see things for what they are. Your devious, deceptive ways backfired on you and the end result was that you actually drove people to the other side. The perception is that anyone who has to resort to the kinds of tactics and verbosity you employ couldn’t have much substance to their complaints, so the opposite becomes even more believable.
What an arrogant, self-important putz! :rolleyes:
All the stores I go to have stacks of unsold MM masterpieces. Have to wonder how well received his next hit-piece will be by the giant (and therefore evil) chain stores who wanted to make a profit from his savant-like genius.
Moore neither said nor implied such a thing; just because Spinsanity inferred such a point doesn’t mean it was made.
Again, Spinsanity is inferring something that was neither claimed nor implied. I guess the idea of a “rhetorical question” never popped into your mind.
It’s called a “joke,” son. Look it up sometime. The fact that Spinsanity has to scrape this low to find a “lie” in Fahrenheit 9/11 speaks for itself.
Don’t get me wrong – I recognize and don’t contest that Moore has played fast and loose with the facts in the past. On the other hand, given the high-profile nature of Fahrenheit 9/11, and the extensive fact-checking Moore put the movie through before it was released (including having it vetted by independent lawyers), I think it’s also a telling point that his opponents haven’t been able to poke holes in the facts presented. And as I wrote above, while you can disagree with his opinions, that’s not the same as saying the guy is lying in this film.
He’s just using the techniques of the Bush Administration against itself. 
Yeah, and Bush says he’s a moderate, too. Doesn’t make him one, though…
Yes well…your own objectivity leaves a lot to be desired (to put it mildly), so forgive me if I don’t take YOU calling me a ‘conservative insta-pundit’ to heart, ehe?
-XT
rjung, I’m glad you post these responses. It shows anyone who reads this thread that MM can only be believed by people who are themselves willing to misrepresent the truth and turn a blind eye to facts.
I chose Spinsanity b/c it is a clearinghouse of information (you can find links to originals there), backs up what it says, and isn’t a conservative or liberal shill.
If you care to start doing any research beyond asking MM himself what he thinks, you’ll find these and other similiar charges made by many reliable people who also back up what they say. (And no, I’m not going to spend my time doing any legwork for you – especially since you’d certainly simply ignore it.)
Spinsanity and others have shown that MM’s defenses do not actually address the problems either (see their articles).
MM does in fact imply the things Spinsanity says he’s implying. I abbreviated the citations b/c the post was already very long, but you can look it up yourself. Btw, using the rhetorical question format does not free MM from his responsibility not to mislead viewers, which is what he is doing.
MM has often used the humor defense, as you do here. As Spinsanity points out, many writers worth their salt (e.g., Twain) used humor to great effect. But saying “it’s a joke” is no defense for omitting information, staging supposedly documentary footage, and deliberately misleading an audience on points of fact.
If you want to get technical, I’m willing to concede that MM does not use direct lies in F9/11 as he does in earlier films/books (and remember, the OP does not focus narrowly on F9/11, as you are so eager to do) – but only if you isolate each statement, ignoring its context. However, your claim that he’s merely drawing his own conclusions – that’s bogus. Telling half-truths in order to create false impressions – that’s deceit, plain and simple.
Michael Moore uses the documentary format to deceive. He’s done it in evey film he’s produced, and he does it in F9/11.
And you are either extremely gullible to the point of blinding yourself to the obvious, or you endorse his tactics and are attempting to use them here yourself, figuring that your opponents won’t agree with you anyway, but you might snare some folks who are willing to accept your claims without looking into them.
“Check, please!”
::unsubscribes::
Again I ask: Where was this unwavering demand for accuracy when the Bush Administration was painting Saddam Hussein as the 19th member of the 9/11 terrorist attacks? Hell, where was this stringent precision when Colin Powell went before the UN and did his we-must-invade-now-r-else-those-mobile-bioweapons-labs-will-kill-us song and dance?
Every documentary is made to promote a certain point of view; every documentarian makes decisions about what to include, what to exclude, what to frame in a flattering or unflattering light. Criticizing Moore for doing this is intellectual laziness – but criticizing Moore for doing this while ignoring the same distortions used by the Bush Administration in its rush to war is pure political hypocrisy.
Your attempt to cast yourself as a Seeker of Truth™ would be more convincing if you didn’t don the mantle only when your ox is getting gored…