# What Will "Post-Imperial" America Be Like? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 5, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-post-imperial-america-be-like/608513 "2012-01-05T15:25:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-post-imperial-america-be-like/608513/21 "2012-01-08T03:22:47Z")
Ireland has a [12.5% corporate tax rate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_of_Europe). Ireland has a public debt that is[94% of GDP](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_public_debt). Portugal has a mean corporate tax rate of 15%. Portugal has a public debt that is 93% of GDP. Can we afford a race to the bottom of corporate tax rates? ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-post-imperial-america-be-like/608513/22 "2012-01-08T03:25:38Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Ireland has a [12.5% corporate tax rate](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_of_Europe). Ireland has a public debt that is[94% of GDP](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_public_debt). > > Portugal has a mean corporate tax rate of 15%. Portugal has a public debt that is 93% of GDP. > > Can we afford a race to the bottom of corporate tax rates? I was thinking of Canada not the Portugese or Irish ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-post-imperial-america-be-like/608513/23 "2012-01-08T03:27:15Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > I was thinking of Canada not the Portugese or Irish You cherry pick your examples, and I will cherry pick mine. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-post-imperial-america-be-like/608513/24 "2012-01-08T06:18:12Z")
I think the kicker would be: would we maintain a high level of education? If so, then, super! We’d have a smaller international military sphere of influence – like Britain – but would maintain a significant economic sphere of influence. If we fail, then we collapse into internal scrabbling, and our economy turns into a kleptocracy. Russia descended into that madness for a while after the Soviet Union collapsed. Ideas are the coin of an information-age economy. Let education be the prime beneficiary of the peace dividend! ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-post-imperial-america-be-like/608513/25 "2012-01-08T14:37:02Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Which wars are these? Who in Europe is going to attack who? Is Russia going to attack Germany any time soon? The only reason we have troops in Germany is because we were afraid the Soviet Union was going to attack Western Europe. Well, that’s not likely to happen any time soon is it? And if in a few decades Russia recovers and starts to threaten Europe again, how about we help them out if and when that happens? Remember the Serbs? The genocide attempt? ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-post-imperial-america-be-like/608513/26 "2012-01-09T09:41:55Z")
> [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](#): > > Our country is far larger and contains more historically poor ethnic groups than any European countries. So you’re saying that there are more poorer people in the U.S. because there are more poorer people in the U.S. ? So I suppose conversly, that people have a better standard of living in W. Europe because the standard of living is better in W.Europe ? ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-post-imperial-america-be-like/608513/27 "2012-01-09T13:46:28Z")
That is probably impossible to predict. That version of America is so vastly different in significant ways from the current status, I can’t imagine the ramifications. See the problem is that eliminating energy concerns will not necessarily improve prices or access to goods. Without a change in law or culture it is likely that energy will remain roughly as expensive as it is now. There is no reason for companies to give up their record profits. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-post-imperial-america-be-like/608513/28 "2012-01-09T14:08:54Z")
> [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](#): > > Remember the Serbs? The genocide attempt? So the only thing stopping the Serbs from invading Bosnia is the fact that we have troops in Germany? ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-post-imperial-america-be-like/608513/29 "2012-01-09T16:22:10Z")
I was under the impression that us Brits were there as well amongst others. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-post-imperial-america-be-like/608513/30 "2012-01-09T16:31:36Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > The universe where I have travelled to the U.S. often, and moved around widely there, and have seen that generally you have a lower standard of living then most of Western Europe. > > Next question ? I was stationed in Western Europe for years and traveled throughout the continent extensively and come to the exact opposite conclusion, that Western Europe generally has a lower standard of living. I don’t want to argue about “human development index” factors, but in my experience being middle class in Europe is markedly inferior to being middle class in America. In terms of what you can purchase and how much disposable income you have, I was struck by how little consumer purchasing power average middle class Euros have and how little real property Europeans own. I do think Western Europe’s poor have it better than American poor, but if you’re employed in America and have health insurance your purchasing power and material wealth will be higher than an equivalent Europeans. ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-post-imperial-america-be-like/608513/31 "2012-01-09T16:48:57Z")
The USA is an imperialistic nation and one of the most warmonging ones in the history of its years of of existence. It has shadowed its parent, the British Empire and that Empire’s ancestors. Look at our history (I am an American)! We haven’t had 20 years in a row without armed combat since we came into existence. Maybe not 15, don’t have my books handy. We LOVE war. We revel in it. We write books and movies about how COOL it is to kill other people. So, a post-imperial America will be horrible. We are conditioned to be the BEST NATION on the freaking planet. If China beats us, then we will revolt. I don’t know how. I don’t know when. And we probably will fail. But by Og, we will attack. Probably to our doom. But, look at our history. Short as is has been, it has been filled with wars. We are a warring populace. The current military is comprised of 100% voluntary members. We go everywhere all over the planet’s surface to present our nation’s interests for whatever purpose our leadership directs us. And we usually kill more folks than are killed by them. That isn’t going to change easily. It should. I don’t agree with our current policy. But, I am just a code jockey writing on a message board on my day off. What the heck do I know? ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-post-imperial-america-be-like/608513/32 "2012-01-09T18:48:44Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I was stationed in Western Europe for years and traveled throughout the continent extensively and come to the exact opposite conclusion, that Western Europe generally has a lower standard of living. > > I don’t want to argue about “human development index” factors, but in my experience being middle class in Europe is markedly inferior to being middle class in America. In terms of what you can purchase and how much disposable income you have, I was struck by how little consumer purchasing power average middle class Euros have and how little real property Europeans own. > > I do think Western Europe’s poor have it better than American poor, but if you’re employed in America and have health insurance your purchasing power and material wealth will be higher than an equivalent Europeans. A fewvery major ifs in there. Particulary the health insurance one. And as to buying power, you must consider that licenced begging, operating under the title of tipping is not a must, to bring your low pay to an almost living wage. Yes many American service industry workers will tell you that they’re minting it, of course they will, its bad enough being in that position in the first place so you’re going at least try to save your pride. And the quaint custom of of quoting prices, which you THEN have to add tax on to. Also I’ve noticed that in many places in the U.S. the infra structure is shabby and run down. God knows every country has its less salubrious areas, but in the U.S. there seems to be more of them and larger, almost to the point of ubiquity. Even in major tourist destinations like Orlando, get off of International Drive and its like being in the Third World, grubby, wooden shacks, with litter filled streets. I’ve been to many towns and cities in the U.S. and seen this in all of them up to now including Washington, , and I’m not expecting any surprises soon. Going even a little way off of Market St. in San Francisco I found the bums standing round the oildrum fire stereotype, though to be honest I found S.F. to be one of the cleanest U.S. cities IME I recall seeing a homeless person IN A WHEEL CHAIR, sleeping in a shop doorway in Malibu. And I’ve never seen anything like parts of Detroit in a first world country outside of the U.S. As to buying power, yes you can get stuff cheaper, something that I very much respect America for . Your working conditions are worse, holidays are shorter, foreign holidays seem to be unusual, choice of goods in supermarkets is a lot more limited. No sorry I’d live in the U.S. for a limited period if work demanded it, but I’d prefer to live just about anywhere in W.Europe before I did so, and that includes Belgium. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-post-imperial-america-be-like/608513/33 "2012-01-09T19:37:47Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > A fewvery major ifs in there. I don’t disagree with that, I think that any country in the G20 a lot of it will come to personal preferences. (The European/N. American G20 countries that is.) “Looking run down” isn’t a very scientific measure…I’ve certainly seen a lot of the UK that is bleak and run down. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-post-imperial-america-be-like/608513/34 "2012-01-09T19:45:07Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > the US Army has shrunk to 100,000 men. And how many women? ---
**Author:** ![Ponch8](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ponch8/32/9883_2.png) [@Ponch8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ponch8)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2012, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-post-imperial-america-be-like/608513/35 "2012-01-09T22:42:51Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > I think a post Imperial America wouldn’t be much different. Blue Bonnet and Country Crock shares might increase, or maybe more people would turn to actual butter and we’d have fewer deaths related to trans-fats induced cancers. The latter is cost prohibitive, though, considering butter costs 3x what margine does. I think people will also switch to olive oil, so we can’t totally withdraw from the Middle East. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2012, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-post-imperial-america-be-like/608513/36 "2012-01-10T23:22:22Z")
It could be W.Europe. versus Russia. ---
**Author:** ![Walther\_Ego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8dc957/32.png) [@Walther\_Ego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Walther_Ego)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-post-imperial-america-be-like/608513/37 "2012-01-11T12:33:17Z")
Why two hypotheticals, isolationism and energy independence, to same thread? Also, I hate the bipolar nature of American politics. There will always be just two options, America will either be the greatest nation on Earth or a total disaster, there can be only either 12 or zero carrier groups, the policy has to be interventionism or isolationism. But I’ll play ball… Energy indepence helps only in a world where transport costs are large. Unless the governement keeps the prices artificially low (some energy independent countries do). The real question is really how cheap the thorium nuclear energy is? I have no idea. But I suspect the OP somehow means by energy independence an independence from world trade. But the world trade is much more than energy. Trade isolationism? America is much bigger than North Korea, so it would do better, difficult to say how much. Not very well. The World is very trade dependent, so non-stupid leaders don’t start wars often. In addition, after the two World Wars it has been obvious, that the loser could never ever possibly pay for the winners costs. In fact nobody can. That’s how expensive war is nowadays. But then we have the stupid leaders, and the ones who can extend their grip on power by a few months by destroying their peoples wealth. In Europe, people are generally aware that wars kill prosperity and war touches everybody thru bombings. Hungary has a somewhat loony governement, but its economy is going down the shitter (maybe just because of that) so it’s not a threat. Most European cynical leaders are like Berlusconi. They do hurt their countries by throwing unnecessary insults at other nations, but they would not start a war. The main candidate for aggression is Russia. Russia lives by its energy exports to Europe, so it takes a loonier leader than Putin to start a war. On a more distant future, that is always a possibility. In Africa, the US is not keeping piece, so no change. In south America, there have been no interventions for years. In the Middle East, there would be a return to the pre-Gulf War era, when the US stayed out of direct intervention. This could easily be the best candidate for inceased number of conventional wars. However, the failure of the current policy is the reason Americans talk openly about withdrawal from World politics. So would it be worse? Difficult to say. In East Asia, there already is a strong naval power, Japan. The tension will continue to increase. This might even lead to war. But China has the biggest pension bomb of the World ticking. When the last generation before one child policy goes out of workforce, the phenomenal growth will stop. So China is not destined to become the ruler of the World. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-post-imperial-america-be-like/608513/38 "2012-01-11T13:05:16Z")
I am not proposing isolationism-quite the contrary. What I propose is that the USA stop being world policeman. It is too expensive and diverts us from keeping our own house in order. Frankly, wars of conquest are passe-WWII was an anomaly-guys like Adolf Hitler won’t be coming to power again. And Putin-he is aggressive, but he is not crazy-he knows that re-establishing the old Soviet Empire is impossible. As for the Middle East-until the people reject radical islam, forget about the place-that is why we need to be independent of that horrible place. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2012, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-post-imperial-america-be-like/608513/39 "2012-01-11T21:44:58Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > . . . Frankly, wars of conquest are passe-WWII was an anomaly-guys like Adolf Hitler won’t be coming to power again. . . . But small wars of aggrandizement are not passé. They’re still happening. Border disputes, civil wars, revolutions, genocidal uprisings, and the like. Nasty, and horribly common. If one believes that the U.S. (and other countries) have vested interests in stable economies abroad, then maintaining a reaction force – “Send in the Marines!” – is still a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-post-imperial-america-be-like/608513/40 "2012-01-12T19:56:14Z")
> [@Lust4Life](#): > > …Belgium. Hey now, there’s no call for that kind of talk here! :mad: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-post-imperial-america-be-like/608513.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-post-imperial-america-be-like/608513.md?page=3)