# What will really happen if Texas passes the TSA anti-groping bill? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2011, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310 "2011-06-21T17:05:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/21 "2011-06-21T19:42:50Z")
> [@Dripping](#): > > The question is: what happens next, once this bill is passed? Assuming it becomes law, I suspect that the Justice Department will seek and obtain an injunction to prevent it from taking effect while the case is litigated. Once the injunction is in place, it will be business as usual until the Court rules. The losing side will possibly appeal, but I think this is probably a non-starter as a practical matter. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/22 "2011-06-21T19:49:45Z")
NH is pursuing [a similar bill](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/02/dont-touch-my-junk-bill_n_830342.html). ---
**Author:** ![Dripping](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d2c977/32.png) [@Dripping](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dripping)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/23 "2011-06-21T19:49:49Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Assuming it becomes law, I suspect that the Justice Department will seek and obtain an injunction to prevent it from taking effect while the case is litigated. Once the injunction is in place, it will be business as usual until the Court rules. The losing side will possibly appeal, but I think this is probably a non-starter as a practical matter. Ok thanks. So if the bill passes what are the chances that Texas will rush to arrest a TSA worker before the injunction is granted? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/24 "2011-06-21T19:52:13Z")
> [@Dripping](#): > > Factual question: Are the current TSA abuses, specifically the “enhanced pat-downs” and the naked scanners provably Obama’s fault? After all, it was the Bush administration that created and empowered the TSA. Weren’t there already problems with them being out of control before Obama arrived? I’m not taking sides here, I really don’t know the answer to this question. I checked for press releases from [Whitehouse.gov](http://Whitehouse.gov) and I cant find any press releases with any statements in the last year about air travel security. Machiavelli 101 would suggest that the correct procedure would be to go ahead and let the TSA shut the flights down and then step in and fire some high level people at TSA. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2011, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/25 "2011-06-21T20:03:14Z")
Is there any citation for the TSA threatening to shut down flights in Texas other than a quote from a supporter of the bill? My guess is that if there is some period between which the law is enacted and an injunction is granted, a TSA agent would ask permission to frisk a passenger going through security. If the passenger grants permission, this law would not be violated. If the passenger does not grant permission, then I would guess they would have their ticket confiscated and be escorted out of the airport, as it should be. But I have zero doubt that Texas, New Hampshire, or any other state has no ability whatsoever to pass laws that override Federal laws pertaining to the safety of interstate commerce. That’s a no-brainer. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/26 "2011-06-22T01:05:57Z")
Would interstate commerce apply if they fly withing Texas? It’s a large state, and I’m sure people fly from one side to another all the time. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/27 "2011-06-22T11:02:59Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Is there any citation for the TSA threatening to shut down flights in Texas other than a quote from a supporter of the bill? [http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/7620673.html](http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/7620673.html) > [@](#): > > John E. Murphy, the U.S. attorney for the Western District of Texas, then wrote a letter to both legislative chambers saying the bill would interfere with TSA’s ability to ensure travelers’ safety. > > Murphy wrote that if the measure became law, the federal government probably would seek to block it with an emergency stay and “unless or until such a stay were granted, TSA would likely be required to cancel any flight or series of flights for which it could not ensure the safety of passengers and crew.” > [@](#): > > But I have zero doubt that Texas, New Hampshire, or any other state has no ability whatsoever to pass laws that override Federal laws pertaining to the safety of interstate commerce. That’s a no-brainer. I think the question is whether the TSA actually has the authority to search law abiding citizens who aren’t even suspected of a crime. You should also check out the TSA web site. They are already talking about similar programs for trains and are working on programs for buses. It is pretty clear that the TSA thinks they have the same authority over anyone using any transportation system that they have over airline passengers. [http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/highway/index.shtm](http://www.tsa.gov/travelers/highway/index.shtm) ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/28 "2011-06-22T12:43:21Z")
The bill actually failed in the Texas Senate last May; Perry just brought it up again during the Special Session. [Last month](http://www.texasobserver.org/forrestforthetrees/item/17869-alex-jones-leads-mob-to-the-doors-of-the-senate): > [@](#): > > The Senate’s decision to block HB 1937—the TSA “anti-groping bill” by Rep. David Simpson—brought a small mob of protestors to the Capitol today intent on doing a little molesting of their own. > > Clamoring at the doors of the House and Senate, more than 40 protestors wielded signs that read, “Out of my pants TSA” and “Protect me from TSA” and chanted “TREASON,” CRIMINALS” and “COWARDS.” Their cries could be heard clearly in the Senate chamber and had lawmakers looking over their shoulders. > > The protesters, organized by 9-11 conspiracy theorist and radio personality Alex Jones, were outraged by the Senate’s move to block legislation that would make it a misdemeanor for TSA agents to touch your “special parts.” The bill passed the House with little dissent, but hit a major roadblock in the Senate last night, when a letter from the U.S. Department of Justice caused some senators to withdraw their support for Simpson’s bill. The letter stated that Texas could be in violation to federal law if the bill passed, and that TSA, “would likely be required to cancel any flight or series of flights for which it could not ensure the safety of passengers and crews.” More details of the [colorfully worded proposition](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/06/20/texas-tsa-bill-groping-_n_880978.html) here: > [@](#): > > The bill would make it a Class A misdemeanor – punishable by up to a year in prison or a $4,000 fine – for a TSA agent to “touch the anus, sexual organ, buttocks, or breast of another person, even through that person’s clothing” for the purpose of “granting access to a building or a form of transportation.” If it _should_ happen to pass this time, lawyers will get busy & things will be worked out. If not, there will be weeping, moaning & gnashing of teeth. (Maybe somebody can market The Texas Anus Guard. Get those A&M scientists to work!) Whatever. Perry will keep banging it out to the cheap seats–running for President on the platform: The Federal Government Sucks! Put Me In Charge! From the previously cited [Houston Chronicle](http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/7620673.html) article: > [@](#): > > Perry gave no reason for changing his mind about adding the bill to the special session, but doing so will help in avoid right-wing criticism as he moves closer to deciding whether to seek the Republican nomination for president. > > The governor had said during a weekend book signing at the Republican Leadership Conference in New Orleans that he didn’t plan to add the pat-down measure to the agenda because there wasn’t enough support or time for it to pass. **dbx820** put it more succinctly: > [@](#): > > Oh, and Perry is a dipshit who is pandering to his wingnuts. Forgot to mention that one earlier. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/29 "2011-06-22T13:04:56Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Would interstate commerce apply if they fly withing Texas? It’s a large state, and I’m sure people fly from one side to another all the time. Of course. Those flights are still regulated by the FAA, how could one claim that they may not be subject to other Federal regulation? > [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I think the question is whether the TSA actually has the authority to search law abiding citizens who aren’t even suspected of a crime. To your general point that some type of probable cause is needed to search airline passengers, you are arguing against nearly half a century of practice and case law that holds that the government may undertake “administrative searches” to promote the security of an activity regulated by the Federal government. As to searching people getting on buses or trains, I think you’re making a slippery slope argument. Whether searches are good policy for those modes of transportation is a different question than whether security agents should go to jail for frisking airline passengers. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/30 "2011-06-22T13:49:01Z")
There is no doubt that the Federal Government would seek and obtain an emergency injunction before any enforcement of this law happens. The chances of a screener being arrested or all air travel to Texas being shut down approach zero. The chance that Texas would prevail in court against the TSA does not approach zero. It is zero. This is simply impotent political posturing. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/31 "2011-06-22T14:00:11Z")
Get enough states on board on an issue of vital importance, and it’s the states that will trump anything the courts might say. I imagine that little detail will be in the back of the mind of the PTB. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/32 "2011-06-22T16:31:23Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Get enough states on board on an issue of vital importance, and it’s the states that will trump anything the courts might say. I imagine that little detail will be in the back of the mind of the PTB. Complete nonsense, as established in Grant v. Lee. ---
**Author:** ![Khendrask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3e96dc/32.png) [@Khendrask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Khendrask)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/33 "2011-06-22T17:08:11Z")
> [@dbx820](#): > > Everybody complains about the TSA screening–until a plane is hijacked or taken down because someone was able to board with a weapon. Then it will be “My God why isn’t the government protecting us properly???” … I don’t whine. Thanks to the TSA, I simply refuse to travel through any portal controlled by those self important, voyeuristic wastes of taxpayer money. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/34 "2011-06-22T18:01:23Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Complete nonsense, as established in Grant v. Lee. Well, Perry has been known to fly the Secession flag. Which doesn’t exactly mesh with his presidential aspirations. Just another Aggie Joke… ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/35 "2011-06-22T18:45:32Z")
> [@Dripping](#): > > **What will really happen if Texas passes the TSA anti-groping bill?** Great user name/ post title combo. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/36 "2011-06-22T19:23:48Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > Get enough states on board on an issue of vital importance, and it’s the states that will trump anything the courts might say. I imagine that little detail will be in the back of the mind of the PTB. > [@Ravenman](#): > > Complete nonsense, as established in Grant v. Lee. No. The holding in Grant v. Lee was that Lee didn’t have enough states on board. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/37 "2011-06-22T19:57:46Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Of course. Those flights are still regulated by the FAA, how could one claim that they may not be subject to other Federal regulation? > > To your general point that some type of probable cause is needed to search airline passengers, you are arguing against nearly half a century of practice and case law that holds that the government may undertake “administrative searches” to promote the security of an activity regulated by the Federal government. You make a good point, but there is also a balancing requirement: > [@](#): > > U.S. vs Davis was upheld by the 9th Circuit Court in 1986 in U.S. vs Pulido-Baquerizo, 800 F.2d 899, 901 with this ruling “To judge reasonableness, it is necessary to **balance the right to be free of intrusion with society’s interest in safe air travel**.” [http://boardingarea.com/blogs/flyingwithfish/2010/11/20/how-the-tsa-legally-circumvents-the-fourth-amendment/](http://boardingarea.com/blogs/flyingwithfish/2010/11/20/how-the-tsa-legally-circumvents-the-fourth-amendment/) The fact of the matter is that TSA search procedures have never detected a terrorist. We have a balance where one side of the scale is empty. At the very least this argues that the TSA was an unnecessary overreaction and for a Status Quo Ante 9/11. > [@](#): > > As to searching people getting on buses or trains, I think you’re making a slippery slope argument. Whether searches are good policy for those modes of transportation is a different question than whether security agents should go to jail for frisking airline passengers. How slippery is the slope when I’m linking to stuff on TSA own web site. ---
**Author:** ![muldoonthief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muldoonthief/32/3188_2.png) [@muldoonthief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muldoonthief)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/38 "2011-06-22T20:37:32Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > You make a good point, but there is also a balancing requirement: > > [http://boardingarea.com/blogs/flyingwithfish/2010/11/20/how-the-tsa-legally-circumvents-the-fourth-amendment/](http://boardingarea.com/blogs/flyingwithfish/2010/11/20/how-the-tsa-legally-circumvents-the-fourth-amendment/) > > The fact of the matter is that TSA search procedures have never detected a terrorist. We have a balance where one side of the scale is empty. At the very least this argues that the TSA was an unnecessary overreaction and for a Status Quo Ante 9/11. But there’s also not been a case of a terrorist hijacking or bombing a plane that was screened by the TSA. You could argue that the TSA screening is so effective that terrorists haven’t figured a way around it yet, so they haven’t even tried. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 22, 2011, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/39 "2011-06-22T22:08:21Z")
> [@muldoonthief](#): > > But there’s also not been a case of a terrorist hijacking or bombing a plane that was screened by the TSA. You could argue that the TSA screening is so effective that terrorists haven’t figured a way around it yet, so they haven’t even tried. Is there any evidence to support that hypothesis? We have a huge data dump from when we bagged Bin Laden and there isn’t an operational reason to suppress it, since Al Qaeda already knows we have it. The fact that **all** Al Qaeda international operations have been curtailed point to effective counter terrorist operations rather than anything that TSA has done. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 23, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/40 "2011-06-23T00:08:08Z")
BTW, here is the TSA doing searches of passengers at a bus station in Tampa. [http://www2.abcactionnews.com/dpp/news/region\_west\_hillsborough/Homeland-Security-targets-bus-traffic-in-Tampa](http://www2.abcactionnews.com/dpp/news/region_west_hillsborough/Homeland-Security-targets-bus-traffic-in-Tampa) I loved the TSA comment: > [@](#): > > We do this for a couple of reasons," stated Transportation Security Administration Federal Security Director Gary Milano. "To sort of invent the wheel in advance – in case we have to if there is any specific intelligence requiring us to be here. This was to show that we and our partners are ready to move in at a moments notice. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310.md?page=3)