# What will really happen if Texas passes the TSA anti-groping bill? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 21, 2011, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310 "2011-06-21T17:05:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/61 "2011-06-25T02:04:41Z")
> [@Koxinga](#): > > The intellectual fallacy harbored by the TSA is its avowed zero tolerance policy for any level of risk of an aircraft being bombed. That’s an impossible standard and at odds with the airline industry’s practice in every other area, e.g., a plane crashing due to bad weather. A shoe bomb or an underpants bomb might possibly bring down an airliner, but so might wind shear or a microburst at the ruway. > > They can’t say they’re preventing another 9-11, because a repeat of that plot has been rendered impossible by passenger awareness, changes in onboard procedures and the simple expedient of reinforcing the cockpit door. > > In view of the acceptable levels of risk carried by airlines every day, the TSA serves literally no purpose at all except to perpetuate its own power. And to provide cover for politicians too cowardly to admit the above reality. You’re going to talk about intellectual fallacies and the same post use the theory that we can’t stop everything so we shouldn’t even bother to try? TSA certainly has a purpose and a role to keep our air traffic safe. While they might need some wrangling back in terms of overreach, to say their only purpose is to perpetuate it’s own power is absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/62 "2011-06-25T02:54:08Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > You’re going to talk about intellectual fallacies and the same post use the theory that we can’t stop everything so we shouldn’t even bother to try? It’s more of a matter that the point of diminishing returns is a speck in the rear view mirror. The same level of involvement in the pharmecutical industry would be to make all drugs prescription only so that one more person a year can be saved from a bad drug interaction. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/63 "2011-06-25T03:19:52Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > You’re going to talk about intellectual fallacies and the same post use the theory that we can’t stop everything so we shouldn’t even bother to try? Bit of a whoosh, unless you’re trying to help out by illustrating exactly the kind of false dichotomy I’m talking about. > [@boytyperanma](#): > > TSA certainly has a purpose and a role to keep our air traffic safe. While they might need some wrangling back in terms of overreach, to say their only purpose is to perpetuate it’s own power is absurd. They had no such role before 2002. It’s a stunner, I know, but somehow we survived. And before you leap in with “what about 9-11!!!”, as I pointed out above the TSA’s procedures have nothing to do with stopping such a thing from happening again, and (given its incompetence) likely wouldn’t have stopped it at the time either. And if securing air travel is their purpose, what are they trying to do groping people in Amtrack and Greyhound stations? ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/64 "2011-06-26T14:58:16Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > TSA certainly has a purpose and a role to keep our air traffic safe. While they might need some wrangling back in terms of overreach, to say their only purpose is to perpetuate it’s own power is absurd. Saying it is the only purpose is incorrect, but saying it is the primary purpose is a fair statement. All bureaucracies end up being dominated by people whose primary purpose is preserving the organization rather accomplishing whatever the stated purpose of the organization is. > [@](#): > > Pournelle’s Iron Law of Bureaucracy states that in any bureaucratic organization there will be two kinds of people: those who work to further the actual goals of the organization, and those who work for the organization itself. Examples in education would be teachers who work and sacrifice to teach children, vs. union representative who work to protect any teacher including the most incompetent. The Iron Law states that in all cases, the second type of person will always gain control of the organization, and will always write the rules under which the organization functions. [http://www.jerrypournelle.com/archives2/archives2mail/mail408.html#Iron](http://www.jerrypournelle.com/archives2/archives2mail/mail408.html#Iron) ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/65 "2011-06-26T17:21:55Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > The Feds have the responsibility to keep the airways safe and to balance the need for safety vs the desire for modesty (privacy has nothing to do with this since **anyone is free to not fly and not be subject to such searches** ), just like a state believes the Feds have failed in their obligation to provide adequate immigration policy and enforcement. A state believes they are not deciding wisely. Can they over-rule the Fed decision in their state by passing a state law? > I doubt it. How free is it when air travel is a condition of employment? Telling a flight attendant they are free not to fly is to tell them that they free to sleep in a refrigerator cartoon. There are millions of people who have to fly as a condition of their employment. Furthermore freedom of movement is recognized as a basic right in the United States. That the federal government would take actions to curtail individual rights rather than enforce them is an ominous precedent. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom\_of\_movement\_under\_United\_States\_law](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_movement_under_United_States_law) Also I find it absurd when people talk about the need to ‘guarantee’ safety. There is only acceptable and unacceptable levels of safety, not absolute safety. 9/11 was a bad day for air safety, but the numbers for 2001 were still safer than driving in a car on a passenger mile basis. If we go back to the pre 9/11 standards, except for not letting hijackers in the cockpit, then that is safe enough. If someone disagrees, then they always have the option not to fly as DSeid says. I don’t like people who are willing to give away my rights to humor their irrational hysteria. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/66 "2011-06-26T17:53:55Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > I’ve heard people in the security field say that the Israeli method couldn’t scale up to handle our number of travelers. No cite at the moment, I’m on my iPad. Maybe its just that the U.S. doesn’t have the relatively huge amount of young military veterans that Israel, with its mandatory draft, produces every year. Screeners with three years of military training and experience can be trusted to exercise a lot more intelligence and discretion than graduates of a three-week TSA course. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/67 "2011-06-26T18:01:46Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It should be run like it’s done in Israel which is both non-invasive, more successful, and cheaper. Interrogation isn’t “non-invasive.” ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/68 "2011-06-26T18:49:35Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > How free is it when air travel is a condition of employment? … I don’t like people who are willing to give away my rights to humor their irrational hysteria. You are free not to take that job as well. Many jobs require drug screens as well, you don’t want to take a drug screen don’t take that job. If that means you don’t work, well that is your choice that you have made. You don’t have a right to any job you want on your terms and you don’t have a _right_ to fly on a commercial airplane. Mind you, I agree that many of the security measures are more of a sop to hysteria than they are good policy, but that really is not the point, the point is that it is not the states’ to decide individually; this is national policy and must be made at a Federal level. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 26, 2011, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/69 "2011-06-26T23:02:10Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Mind you, I agree that many of the security measures are more of a sop to hysteria than they are good policy, but that really is not the point, the point is that it is not the states’ to decide individually; this is national policy and must be made at a Federal level. I can’t help but notice that a lot of states have managed to decriminalize possession of small amounts of marijuana even though it violates federal law. I suspect that it comes down to a court deciding if the TSA actions meets the balancing tests. As I’ve said before, I doubt that it will come to that. Either the TSA will back down or President Obama will make them back down, because he doesn’t want to run for election, while giving Republicans an issue to beat him over the head with. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/70 "2011-06-27T00:02:33Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > I can’t help but notice that a lot of states have managed to decriminalize possession of small amounts of marijuana even though it violates federal law. I suspect that it comes down to a court deciding if the TSA actions meets the balancing tests. That’s not really the same thing. Just because a state declines to prosecute someone is no bar to a federal prosecution. The Texas bill would bar federal agents from carrying out their duties. ---
**Author:** ![Erdosain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/erdosain/32/7284_2.png) [@Erdosain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Erdosain)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/71 "2011-06-27T00:45:16Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > Either the TSA will back down or President Obama will make them back down, because he doesn’t want to run for election, while giving Republicans an issue to beat him over the head with. If you think LESS security at airports is a winning election issue, let alone one Republicans would enthusiastically embrace, you are living on a different planet. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/72 "2011-06-27T03:23:57Z")
What will very likely happen is that there will be an injunction against implementing the law, which Texas will respect, and it will be ruled against in the courts. The issue with decriminalized marijuana is not one I have too good of a handle on, but my understanding such as it is, is that states can make medical or small amounts possession legal under state law, and compel state employees to not arrest offenders, even while it reamins illegal under federal law. It is still within the power of the DEA to come in and arrest people for the Federal offense and the state cannot prevent that or interfere with it if the DEA decided to do so. But such an arrest would have to made by a Federal employee and handled in a Federal court with incarceration in a Federal facility. Also, agreed with **Erdoain**. ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/73 "2011-06-27T05:09:32Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > If you think LESS security at airports is a winning election issue, let alone one Republicans would enthusiastically embrace, you are living on a different planet. 1. Since the law we are discussing was passed by a Texas **Republican** House, a Texas **Republican** Senate and a **Republican** Governor is appears that you have limited contact with actual Republicans. You also have to consider that there are a sizable number of Republicans that will embrace any issue if it will make President Obama squirm. 2. This election, like all presidential elections will be decided by independent voters. Issues will be selected by how they play with independent voters. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/74 "2011-06-27T06:53:03Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > Interrogation isn’t “non-invasive.” Really, how so? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/75 "2011-06-27T07:07:00Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Patrick Smith points out in [this Ask the Pilot column](http://www.salon.com/technology/ask_the_pilot/2006/06/09/askthepilot189) that El Al has fewer than forty planes (although the column is five years old, so the numbers may have changed), one hub airport and fewer than three million passengers annually. So their methods wouldn’t work for the much larger and more decentralized American carriers. There is nothing in that article to suggest it wouldn’t work. But we’ll just keep asking 95 year old leukemia victims to remove their adult incontinence garments because it’s the politically correct thing to do until the next breach of security creates an even more invasive procedure. It’s just a matter of time before women have to remove their tampons. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/76 "2011-06-27T08:37:51Z")
> [@Erdosain](#): > > If you think LESS security at airports is a winning election issue, let alone one Republicans would enthusiastically embrace, you are living on a different planet. But it’s not less security. It’s an equal amount of security, but less sexual assault. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/77 "2011-06-27T11:48:38Z")
> [@JoelUpchurch](#): > > 1. Since the law we are discussing was passed by a Texas **Republican** House, a Texas **Republican** Senate and a **Republican** Governor is appears that you have limited contact with actual Republicans. You also have to consider that there are a sizable number of Republicans that will embrace any issue if it will make President Obama squirm. > > 2. This election, like all presidential elections will be decided by independent voters. Issues will be selected by how they play with independent voters. But the law hasn’t been passed. The TSA bill failed in the Texas Senate last May; Perry brought it up for the Special Session as part of his Will He Or Won’t He Run Striptease. With the money shot to be revealed at this August’s Prayerapalooza at Reliant Stadium–fittingly, the site of Janet Jackson’s Wardrobe Malfunction. Latest bulletin [here](http://blog.mysanantonio.com/texas-politics/2011/06/the-first-word-sanctuary-cities-ban-is-all-but-dead/): > [@](#): > > It looks like Rep. David Simpson’s anti-groping bill has been replaced by a resolution, authored by Rep. Linda Harper-Brown, that calls on federal officials to do more to protect civil liberties at airports. > > House Speaker Joe Straus told reporters on Friday that he wouldn’t allow Simpson’s bill, which would have made it a crime for TSA officers to perform pat-down searches without probable cause, to come to the floor and called it a “stunt” that would make the House a national laughingstock. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/78 "2011-06-27T12:31:24Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Patrick Smith points out in [this Ask the Pilot column](http://www.salon.com/technology/ask_the_pilot/2006/06/09/askthepilot189) that El Al has fewer than forty planes (although the column is five years old, so the numbers may have changed), one hub airport and fewer than three million passengers annually. So their methods wouldn’t work for the much larger and more decentralized American carriers. Both you and the writer are mistaking El Al security with that of Ben Gurion Airport. BGN may not be the size of the largest American or global airports, but it saw over 12 million passengers in 2010, on nearly 100,000 flights. Just for reference, the entire population of Israel is 7 million people. Also, despite its security, Ben-Gurion is constantly listed as one of the most pleasant airports in the world for its size according to customer surveys. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/79 "2011-06-27T13:19:40Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Both you and the writer are mistaking El Al security with that of Ben Gurion Airport. BGN may not be the size of the largest American or global airports, but it saw over 12 million passengers in 2010, on nearly 100,000 flights. Just for reference, the entire population of Israel is 7 million people. Despite some people having concerns about the whole racial profiling thing, the question just goes back to feasibility of implementing such a system that handles 800,000,000 passengers a year. Since El Al’s security is [estimated](http://blog.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2010/01/07/would_you_pay_25_for_71_seconds_of_scrutiny_in_an_airport) to cost ten times what the TSA does, we’d be looking at having to spend an additional $50 billion per year in airport security costs. That increase alone is about as much as we currently spend on the Department of Justice and the Department of Energy combined. ---
**Author:** ![Drum\_God](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drum_god/32/44_2.png) [@Drum\_God](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drum_God)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310/80 "2011-06-27T18:05:34Z")
> [@](#): > > [**House Speaker Joe Straus** told reporters](http://blog.mysanantonio.com/texas-politics/2011/06/2011/06/speaker-calls-governors-anti-groping-bill-a-publicity-stunt/) on Friday that he wouldn’t allow Simpson’s bill, which would have made it a crime for TSA officers to perform pat-down searches without probable cause, to come to the floor and called it a “stunt” that would make the House a national laughingstock. (originally posted by **Bridget Burke** ) Yes, on this I agree with Straus. Too bad he hasn’t successfully prevented the House from making the whole state of Texas a national laughingstock. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-really-happen-if-texas-passes-the-tsa-anti-groping-bill/586310.md?page=5)