# What will the UK do wrt Brexit? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 18, 2019, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-the-uk-do-wrt-brexit/829799 "2019-02-18T22:39:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2019, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-the-uk-do-wrt-brexit/829799/541 "2019-03-27T15:05:03Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Charming. Not as charming as doubting my patriotism. And yeah, I know I’ll probably get slapped rightly by a mod for my words, but you need checking. > [@](#): > > Anyway, it has nothing to do with indulging the UK, and everything to do with the EU not harming itself just to harm the UK more. It is fucking stupid behaviour, as stupid as the behaviour of the UK and with even less justification. Utter nonsense. The EU doesn’t want to harm itself, but up to a point, indulging division and indecision will cause more harm than a simple cutoff. You’ve been told this before. > [@](#): > > They should do it to try to ensure the UK doesn’t leave, and if it does, that it does so in the least painful way possible. Like _what_? Seriously? Every attempt to implore the UK to have a new vote, or unilaterally extend the Leave date, will be interpreted by the conservatives as weakness and they will demand more and more and more. It won’t win the EU sympathy or support. It will make hard Brexit more likely. > [@](#): > > A softer Brexit? The EU has made it quite clear they will not negotiate such a thing, they have made it politically impossible for Article 50 to be rescinded, and are requiring the UK to go against its usual political processes without being willing to do the same - for example, by not making the European elections a big deal. They have not made the revocation of Article 50 impossible. It only requires a letter from the PM. What are you talking about? The EU isn’t requiring anything of the UK’s political processes. This is the UK’s own politicians trying to sort it out. And the EU has said it’s willing for the UK to take part in EU elections so long as the UK is willing to take part in them as part of a firm course for Brexit. Are you from a parallel universe or something? > [@](#): > > Nobody cares. Okaaaay… Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2019, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-the-uk-do-wrt-brexit/829799/542 "2019-03-27T15:06:20Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The thing is, though, at the moment the EU doesn’t need to do anything except extend Article 50 as requested, and shut up about electing MEPs. That can be dealt with when a final agreement is reached. The trouble with that idea is that, as with so many things to do with running the EU (and for good reason), it is not a matter of political decision-making on the hoof, it’s a matter of international law by treaty. It’s not the same as rushing a bill through Westminster in an emergency. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2019, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-the-uk-do-wrt-brexit/829799/543 "2019-03-27T15:11:19Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > They have not made the revocation of Article 50 impossible. It only requires a letter from the PM. What are you talking about? That is not going to happen. There is more chance of the Queen disolving parliament and taking charge herself than of May rescinding Article 50 and, because of the refusal to extend the deadline sufficiently, there is no opportunity to replace her. The EU is, for whatever reason, ignoring British political realities, and by doing so will seignificantly damage itself. Which is absurdly stupid, almost as much as stupid as what the UK is doing. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2019, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-the-uk-do-wrt-brexit/829799/544 "2019-03-27T15:15:23Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > By refusing to allow a long enough extension to enable a public vote on the issue. It won’t be revoked without a referendum or general election, as revoking it is permanent. The EU needs to either extend article 50 and shut up about European elections, or make it very clear that the UK would not be penalised for revoking then retriggering Article 50. It has offered exactly that, IF Parliament or the government, or somebody at least, comes up with a plan and a proposal for exactly that, by 12 April. What they’re not prepared to do is issue a blank cheque in terms of the time available. The point about the elections I dealt with above, and as for your last point, just as for your first, they can’t mind-read our negotiating position for us, we have to come up with a firm proposal, preferably with a firm decision by parliament (or whatever other means we choose and will stick by) and a timetable attached. Of course they’re not going to say “We’ll just sit here forever while you make your minds up - but in the meantime you can be half-in and half-out of normal business, just as suits you”, which is what you seem to be asking for - why would they? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2019, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-the-uk-do-wrt-brexit/829799/545 "2019-03-27T15:17:50Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > The EU is, for whatever reason, ignoring British political realities Oh, is **that** what you call your current lively antics over there. Does make them sound a little more dignified, I’ll give you that. Not that we in our glass house on this side of the pond have a whole lot of leeway to be throwing stones at other feckless democracies, I’ll give you that too. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2019, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-the-uk-do-wrt-brexit/829799/546 "2019-03-27T15:18:55Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > why would they? Because it’s better than the alternative. What do you think the EU has to gain from a no-deal Brexit? Because unless May’s deal gets voted for (it won’t) that is what will happen. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2019, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-the-uk-do-wrt-brexit/829799/547 "2019-03-27T15:20:19Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Oh, is **that** what you call your current lively antics over there. Does make them sound a little more dignified, I’ll give you that. I could rephrase it as “continuall incoherent bullshit by the feckless shower of imbeciles we call a Government”, if it helps. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2019, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-the-uk-do-wrt-brexit/829799/548 "2019-03-27T15:28:57Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That is not going to happen. There is more chance of the Queen disolving parliament and taking charge herself than of May rescinding Article 50 and, because of the refusal to extend the deadline sufficiently, there is no opportunity to replace her. > > The EU is, for whatever reason, ignoring British political realities, and by doing so will seignificantly damage itself. Which is absurdly stupid, almost as much as stupid as what the UK is doing. So you admit, it’s not the EU making it impossible but British politics. What do you want the EU to do/not do to allow the UK to revoke Article 50, in your eyes? Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2019, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-the-uk-do-wrt-brexit/829799/549 "2019-03-27T15:44:29Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > Go fuck yourself. There’s little more important to me than the Uk, but I’m not so self-centred as to think the whole world should indulge our national delusion. This is a warning for personal insults. If you feel you must, the Pit is right around the corner. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![DCTrekkie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dctrekkie/32/18862_2.png) [@DCTrekkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCTrekkie)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2019, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-the-uk-do-wrt-brexit/829799/550 "2019-03-27T15:44:34Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > That is not going to happen. There is more chance of the Queen disolving parliament and taking charge herself than of May rescinding Article 50 and, because of the refusal to extend the deadline sufficiently, there is no opportunity to replace her. There is nothing stopping us from revoking A50 other than the stubborness (and delusions) of our government. Parliament has had multiple opportunities to remove May but has chosen not to. What more do you expect the EU to do, annex the UK and take control? > [@Steophan](#): > > The EU is, for whatever reason, ignoring British political realities, and by doing so will seignificantly damage itself. Which is absurdly stupid, almost as much as stupid as what the UK is doing. Stop pretending that you’re concerned about the EU. The EU has already been, and continues to be, damaged by Brexit. At some point they have to cut their losses and just let us go. Unlike the UK they have prepared for Brexit and can therefore deal with most of the issues arising from it. It’s the UK that will suffer, but that is entirely the UK’s fault. We should have voted remain, but even if you accept the vote to leave our government should have been prepared after 3 years, but instead they’ve let the nutters argue and done nothing. Trying to blame the EU for not saving us is childish. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2019, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-the-uk-do-wrt-brexit/829799/551 "2019-03-27T15:52:04Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Both the UK and the EU need to do whatever is necessary to ensure that a **no-deal** Brexit does not happen. _psssst._ You misspelled " ". Rather an impressive accomplishment, actually. Well done. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2019, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-the-uk-do-wrt-brexit/829799/552 "2019-03-27T15:53:20Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You explain the value in your own post, to mitigate the harm done by the intransigence on every side. And a shit compromise is better than no compromise at all, for both sides, given that the EU has made it effectively impossible for the UK to revoke Article 50. > > I would love to tell the extremists who want the EU to harm both itself and the UK to fuck right off, but I think that would be against the rules of this forum. Switching the subject to the general to avoid the specific when debating with posters who hold those same views, makes the group insult indistinguishable from the person insult. This is a warning for personal insults. If you, in your outer voice, are cognizant that things may be against the rules of the forum, my suggestion is to restrain them to your inner voice. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2019, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-the-uk-do-wrt-brexit/829799/553 "2019-03-27T15:56:37Z")
> [@DCTrekkie](#): > > Trying to blame the EU for not saving us is childish. Up until the point they refused to grant the necessary extension I would have agreed, but since then they’ve made it clear that their precious elections are more important than the economic and political health of the whole of Europe, which is equally petty and childish. The UK leaving will harm the EU more than it staying in, therefore the EU should do whatever it can to keep the UK in it. I truly don’t understand why anyone is disagreeing with this. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2019, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-the-uk-do-wrt-brexit/829799/554 "2019-03-27T15:59:33Z")
> [@Malden\_Capell](#): > > So you admit, it’s not the EU making it impossible but British politics. It is both. > [@](#): > > What do you want the EU to do/not do to allow the UK to revoke Article 50, in your eyes? Grant the requested extension, and stop making things conditionalon holding European elections. Then grant any further extensions requested, so that the UK can in practice only leave by deliberate action, not inaction. This might leave things in limbo for years, but so what? That’s still better than leaving, especially without a deal. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2019, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-the-uk-do-wrt-brexit/829799/555 "2019-03-27T16:03:41Z")
> [@Wrenching\_Spanners](#): > > Answering the second part first, it’s very clear that the UK can revoke Article 50 without penalty. Unless being pointed at and laughed at, and called a time waster is a penalty. There’s some question on if the UK would be able to re-invoke Article 50 in the near term. But that’s because Article 50 shouldn’t be used as a prop in some unfathomable in-out dance. > > As for requesting an extension to allow for a referendum or a general election, the EU is still allowing that. However, they’ve set a deadline - April 12. The UK needs to present a plan and ask for a sufficiently long extension by then, or a No-Deal withdrawal will happen. Yeah, the EU will require the UK to take part in the EU Parliament elections. That really doesn’t strike me as a harsh penalty. Here’s a question related to the advisory (that is non-compulsory) nature of the referendum. If we posit an alternate universe in which the referendum came back with a “Remain” result, and UKIP gained a majority in Parliament, would PM Farage have been able to invoke Article 50 unilaterally, on the grounds that the referendum was “advisory?” ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2019, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-the-uk-do-wrt-brexit/829799/556 "2019-03-27T16:07:59Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > What do you think the EU has to gain from a no-deal Brexit? Certainty, for one. There are and have been several companies that have complained about a lack of certainty in the political situation and what it is costing them. There is no “business as usual” when the can is repeatedly kicked down the road a few weeks at a time with no end in sight. With a hard exit, they have a definite situation and can deal with it as best they can. With repeated delays and no firm idea what the exit will look like, they can’t plan even a month ahead without significant risk if their projections are incorrect. Leaving things in limbo has a real cost of billions (in euros, dollars, or pounds, take your pick) to the relevant economies. There’s a real argument such loss is not better than having no deal for weeks, months, or years without end. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2019, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-the-uk-do-wrt-brexit/829799/557 "2019-03-27T16:09:01Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Here’s a question related to the advisory (that is non-compulsory) nature of the referendum. If we posit an alternate universe in which the referendum came back with a “Remain” result, and UKIP gained a majority in Parliament, would PM Farage have been able to invoke Article 50 unilaterally, on the grounds that the referendum was “advisory?” There would have had to be an Act of Parliament authorising him to do so, just as there was authorising May to do so. One would assume that a Parliament that had confidence in Farage as leader would pass such an act, though. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2019, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-the-uk-do-wrt-brexit/829799/558 "2019-03-27T16:11:14Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Certainty, for one. There are and have been several companies that have complained about a lack of certainty in the political situation and what it is costing them. There is no “business as usual” when the can is repeatedly kicked down the road a few weeks at a time with no end in sight. > > With a hard exit, they have a definite situation and can deal with it as best they can. With repeated delays and no firm idea what the exit will look like, they can’t plan even a month ahead without significant risk if their projections are incorrect. Well stop kicking it a few weeks down the road, when that’s not what was requested, then. But the certainty of something bad is not better than uncertainty which may lead to a better outcome. The problems at the moment would be magnified tenfold under a no-deal Brexit. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2019, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-the-uk-do-wrt-brexit/829799/559 "2019-03-27T16:20:40Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Yeah, I know… > > But FWIW, I don’t see the value of a “soft Brexit” at all. It’s a shit compromise that would accomplish shit results for shit reasons. It’s mitigation of retardation, nothing better. I wish someone would tell the extremists to fuck right off, honestly. Preferably the Queen, because I have a dream where she sets her corgis on Farage, and it’s beautiful. > Sets a right proper precedent, too. Please do not use the pejorative slur “retard” or variants in this fashion. While not as socially verboten as other slurs, I think it would be better to avoid such usage. [You did the same thing earlier this month in a thread I locked.](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21538300&postcount=478) I chose not to point it out in that thread because I got to it late and elected to simply close the thread. I point it out now to avoid adopting this pattern of usage. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2019, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-the-uk-do-wrt-brexit/829799/560 "2019-03-27T16:24:08Z")
Anyway, today’s Parliamentary business is unusual even by recent standards. The House voted earlier to wrest control of the order of business for today from government, and pass it to Members. What is happening is that there will be indicative votes! This is an attempt to clarify what members will actually vote for. Sixteen motions were proposed, and the Speaker has selected these eight: > [@](#): > > **No Deal (B) – John Baron (Conservative)** > > Agrees to leave the EU on 12 April without a deal. > > **Common market 2.0 (D) – Nick Boles (Conservative)** > > Government joins the European Economic Area (EEA) through the European Free Trade Association (EFTA), and negotiates a temporary customs union until alternative arrangements can be found. > > **EFTA and EEA (H) – George Eustice (Conservative)** > > Remains in the European Economic Area (EEA), and applies to re-join the European Free Trade Association (EFTA). > > Declines to form a customs union but seeks “agreement on new protocols relating to the Northern Ireland border and agri-food trade”. > > **Customs union (J) – Ken Clarke (Conservative)** > > Enshrine the objective to form a customs union in primary legislation. > > **Labour’s alternative plan (K) – Jeremy Corbyn** > > Negotiate changes to the withdrawal agreement and the political declaration to secure Labour’s position, and pass these objectives into law. > > **Revocation to avoid no deal (L) – Joanna Cherry (SNP)** > > If the Withdrawal (Agreement) Bill has not been passed before exit day, the government will ask MPs to approve no deal. If this does not pass, the government will revoke Article 50. > > **Confirmatory public vote (M) – Margaret Beckett (Labour)** > > Government cannot implement or ratify the withdrawal agreement and the political declaration unless and until they have been approved in a referendum. > > **Contingent preferential arrangements (O) – Marcus Fysh (Conservative)** > > Malthouse Plan B: The UK makes its budgetary contributions to the EU to the end of 2020 and agrees with the EU a period of two years in which UK goods have full access to the EU. They are currently debating these motions, and at 7pm the House will recess and MPs will - on green paper ballots, unusually - indicate which options they would be prepared to support. The results will be known around 9pm. The next step, well, I dunno. Also today, the Speaker firmly reminded the Government that if the Meaningful Vote is to return to the House for a third time, then it has to meet his change criteria ie not be a tarted up version of the last one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-the-uk-do-wrt-brexit/829799.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-will-the-uk-do-wrt-brexit/829799.md?page=29)