# What woman in history do you dislike the most? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 7, 2021, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-woman-in-history-do-you-dislike-the-most/937379 "2021-03-07T06:13:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2021, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-woman-in-history-do-you-dislike-the-most/937379/101 "2021-03-10T17:57:06Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Of course we can. She made it possible. > Of course, if not her (and Ferdinand), it would have been someone else. Doesn’t change the fact that it _was_ her, though. These two statements are contradictory. It wasnt her fault as most certainly America would have been “discovered” and soon. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2021, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-woman-in-history-do-you-dislike-the-most/937379/102 "2021-03-10T18:01:59Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > These two statements are contradictory. No, they’re not. > [@DrDeth](#): > > It wasnt her fault as most certainly America would have been “discovered” and soon. “If Hitler didn’t kill the Jews, it would have been someone else as Europe was always on the edge of pogrom. So it wasn’t his fault” - does that sound like an argument to you? ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2021, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-woman-in-history-do-you-dislike-the-most/937379/103 "2021-03-10T18:03:10Z")
A lesser candidate would be Aldrich Ames’ wife, whose lavish shopping habits indirectly led to the death of several American spies. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2021, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-woman-in-history-do-you-dislike-the-most/937379/104 "2021-03-10T18:05:12Z")
> [@fedman1](#): > > Salome for killing John the Baptist I think you should be hating on her mom Herodias instead, she was the instigator. Salome was about 13 years old at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2021, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-woman-in-history-do-you-dislike-the-most/937379/105 "2021-03-10T18:16:00Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > I think you should be hating on her mom Herodias instead, she was the instigator. Salome was about 13 years old at the time. Yes. _On his birthday Herod gave a banquet for his high officials and military commanders and the leading men of Galilee. When the daughter of Herodias came in and danced, she pleased Herod and his dinner guests. The king said to the girl, “Ask me for anything you want, and I’ll give it to you.” And he promised her with an oath, “Whatever you ask I will give you, up to half my kingdom.” She went out and said to her mother, “What shall I ask for?” “The head of John the Baptist,” she answered. At once the girl hurried in to the king with the request: “I want you to give me right now the head of John the Baptist on a platter.” The king was greatly distressed, but because of his oaths and his dinner guests, he did not want to refuse her. So he immediately sent an executioner with orders to bring John’s head. The man went, beheaded John in the prison."_ ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2021, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-woman-in-history-do-you-dislike-the-most/937379/106 "2021-03-10T18:41:25Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > “If Hitler didn’t kill the Jews, it would have been someone else as Europe was always on the edge of pogrom. So it wasn’t his fault” - does that sound like an argument to you? Except that is doubtful, very doubtful. I mean, certainly the Russians had pogroms, but the wide scale deaths would not have occured. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2021, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-woman-in-history-do-you-dislike-the-most/937379/107 "2021-03-10T18:42:51Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > Salome was about 13 years old at the time. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2021, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-woman-in-history-do-you-dislike-the-most/937379/108 "2021-03-10T19:04:00Z")
More than just convenient - I was around during a previous deterrence patrol when they did not attack - that’s what deterrence is all about, in fact there had been 3 deterrent patrols. It’s all there in my post where I detail exactly what took place - but it might be a long search as it was posted quite a while ago ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2021, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-woman-in-history-do-you-dislike-the-most/937379/109 "2021-03-10T19:14:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@Ulfreida](#): > > > > Salome was about 13 years old at the time. > > Cite? Flavius Josephus, _The Antiquities of The Jews_, is where quite a lot of the Herodian family history comes from. According to him she was born about 14 AD. Not that A.D. existed at that point, but extrapolating. I’m afraid it is too much work for me to dig up the original texts. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2021, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-woman-in-history-do-you-dislike-the-most/937379/110 "2021-03-10T19:22:58Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Except that is doubtful, very doubtful. I mean, certainly the Russians had pogroms Really? Just Russians, eh? Not [Ukrainians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyiv_pogroms_(1919)), or [Polish](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lw%C3%B3w_pogrom_(1918)), or [Romanians](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorohoi_pogrom) etc. No, killing, assaulting and raping Jews wasn’t just a Russian thing. It was a European thing. Yes, the Nazis were the ones who industrialized it. But if they hadn’t, it would have been someone else. Clearly history has an inevitability. I mean, isn’t that your whole argument for Isabella? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2021, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-woman-in-history-do-you-dislike-the-most/937379/111 "2021-03-10T19:29:35Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yes, the Nazis were the ones who industrialized it. But if they hadn’t, it would have been someone else. Clearly history has an inevitability. I mean, isn’t that your whole argument for Isabella? There is a big difference between a few thousand dead by pogroms and six million. And it wasnt inevitable so much as already on the way. If not 1492, then within that decade. Cabot was apparently arranging expeditions before the news of Columbus hit England. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2021, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-woman-in-history-do-you-dislike-the-most/937379/112 "2021-03-10T19:37:01Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > There is a big difference between a few thousand dead by pogroms and six million. …is what anyone could have said in 1939. Hindsight is 20-20 > [@DrDeth](#): > > And it wasnt inevitable so much as already on the way. I agree. So was something dreadful for Jews in Europe. If not the Nazis, then the Russians. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2021, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-woman-in-history-do-you-dislike-the-most/937379/113 "2021-03-10T19:40:47Z")
Some excellent candidates in this thread. I’d add Leona Helmsley’s name, along with Ann Coulter. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2021, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-woman-in-history-do-you-dislike-the-most/937379/114 "2021-03-10T23:15:20Z")
**Modnote** : This has almost nothing to do with the Op and is pretty much just a potshot. Please don’t do this again. _This is just a guidance, not a warning. Nothing on your permanent record._ ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-woman-in-history-do-you-dislike-the-most/937379/115 "2021-03-11T00:41:16Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Irrelevant. Unintended consequences are still consequences. True, but the question was “who is responsible for the most deaths,” and think most people would not consider Isabela responsible for deaths primarily caused by a disease she didn’t know would spread. Plus do we know how much did Columbus’s expedition itself spread? The actual cause gets rather far removed from the effect. The further that happens, the less people are generally considered “responsible.” The mention of Columbus’s mother is apt–she is not considered responsible because of how far removed her action (birthing Columbus) was from the actual act. Isabela isn’t quite that far removed, but it’s a difference in degree, not kind. (Don’t read this as excusing what Columbus did do intentionally, or saying that Isabella isn’t culpable for those at all, especially since she financed return trips. But we’re totaling deaths and the bulk of those deaths were caused by disease.) I think you have a bit better an argument with Elizabeth I and the East India Company, because it was the direct immoral actions of humans that caused the deaths. And she’s just one remove away from that in allowing them to go there. There’s no disease or subsequent trip that carries most of the cause. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-woman-in-history-do-you-dislike-the-most/937379/116 "2021-03-11T06:09:03Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > most people would not consider Isabela responsible for deaths primarily caused by a disease she didn’t know would spread. _Even leaving out disease_, the Spanish Empire in the Americas caused millions of deaths. And even the disease [wasn’t helped by the conditions the Spanish imposed](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encomienda#Deaths,_disease,_and_accusations_of_ethnocide_or_genocide). Look, the response to an interesting question like “Who is responsible for the most number of deaths” isn’t a deep analysis of who directly ordered which individual execution. It’s to ask yourself “which horseshoe nail had the biggest effect”. At least, that was how I took it. If y’all instead want to play pedantry games, I’m just going to nope out of here, I’ve already answered the actual question in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Bonum\_Legatum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bonum_legatum/32/6183_2.png) [@Bonum\_Legatum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bonum_Legatum)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2021, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-woman-in-history-do-you-dislike-the-most/937379/117 "2021-03-11T12:20:12Z")
What about a non-European woman? The Dowager Empress Cixi, who embezzled funds earmarked for the Chinese Navy, in order to restore a summer palace - but it was built in the shape of a boat. ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2021, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-woman-in-history-do-you-dislike-the-most/937379/118 "2021-03-13T06:32:46Z")
> [@Die\_Capacitrix](#): > > [Carrie Nation](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrie_Nation). Alcohol is not the root of all evil. And people who abuse alcohol don’t need to be put in jail. I’ll drink to that! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-woman-in-history-do-you-dislike-the-most/937379.md?page=5)