# What would a Green America be like? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 18, 2006, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-green-america-be-like/384636 "2006-12-18T15:33:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2006, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-green-america-be-like/384636/1 "2006-12-18T15:33:37Z")
Follow-up on this thread: [What would a Libertarian America be like?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=400517) Suppose the [Green Party](http://www.gp.org/) somehow won a majority in Congress and all state legislatures, plus the presidency and all governorships – or, even without that much electoral success, somehow got into a position to get every single item on its agenda enacted into law. What would America be like then? What would be the political, social, and economic effects of a consistently Green policy regime? Clarification: There are **two** “Green Parties” in the U.S. From [Politics1.com:](http://www.politics1.com/parties.htm) > [@](#): > > [GREEN PARTY OF THE UNITED STATES (GREEN PARTY)](http://www.gp.org/) - The Green Party – the informal US-affiliate of the leftist, environmentalist European Greens movement – is one of the two largest third parties in the nation. The party regularly fields candidates for local, state and federal offices in many states, and has established active state affiliate parties in nearly all 50 states. The Greens scored a major political points when it convinced prominent consumer advocate Ralph Nader to run as their first Presidential nominee in 1996. Spending just over $5,000, Nader was on the ballot in 22 states and carried over 700,000 votes (4th place - 0.8%). In 2000, Nader raised millions of dollars, mobilized leftist activists and grabbed national headlines with his anti-corporate campaign message. Nader ignored pleas from liberal Democrats that he abandon the race because he was siphoning essential votes away from Al Gore’s campaign – answering that Gore was not substantially different than Bush and that his own campaign was about building a permanent third party. In the end, Nader was on the ballot in 44 states and finished third with 2,878,000 votes (2.7%) – seemingly depriving Gore of wins in some key states. More significantly, Nader missed the important 5% mark for the national vote, meaning the party remained ineligible for federal matching funds in 2004. Until 2001, the Greens were largely a collection of fairly autonomous state/local based political entities with only a weak (and sometimes splintered) national leadership structure that largely served to coordinate electoral activities. That faction – formerly named the Association of State Green Parties (ASGP) – was the larger and more moderate of the two unrelated Green parties. The ASGP voted in 2001 to convert from an umbrella coordinating organization into a formal, unified national party organization. Nader made another run in 2004 – but ran as an Independent. Nader picked a prominent Green leader as his VP runningmate, but Nader’s backers were unable to secure the party’s endorsement for his 2004 run. Instread, Green Party General Counsel David Cobb of Texas won the Presidential nomination (ballot status in 29 states - 120,000 votes - 6th place - 0.1%). Cobb argued the party needed to nominate a candidate who openly belonged to the party (note: Nader had never joined) and was pledged to building the party at the local level. Cobb ran what was called a “safe-states” strategy – a controversial move whereby Cobb only made major efforts to gain votes in states where a strong Green showing would not compromise the ability of the Democratic nominee to defeat Bush in the state. Democrats appreciated the move, but it weakened Cobb’s message. There is much buzz within the Greens of a desire to nominate a woman or person of color for President in 2008. Other official Green Party links include: Green Pages (quarterly newspaper), Global Green Network, Green Party News Center, Campus Greens, Lavendar Greens Caucus, National Women’s Caucus, Disability Caucus, Coordinated Campaign Committee, and Green Party Election Results. The Green Party Platform 2004 sets forth the party’s official stances. > > [THE GREENS/GREEN PARTY USA (G/GPUSA)](http://www.greenparty.org/) - When people talk about “the Green Party” in the US, they are likely NOT talking about this entity. The G/GPUSA is the older, much smaller, and more stridently leftist of the two Green parties. While the GPUSA also nominated Nader for President back in 2000, Nader rejected the G/GPUSA nomination (while embracing the other Green party, listed above). Prominent Nader campaign strategist Jim Hightower described the two Green factions as follows in 2001: “There are two Green party organizations – the [Green Party of the US] whose nomination Ralph accepted and the much smaller one [G/GPUSA] … on the fringes … [with] all sorts of damned-near-communistic ideas.” Some in the G/GPUSA protested that Hightower’s comments were a bit unfair – but read the G/GPUSA 2000 Platform (which remains the current G/GPUSA platform) and decide for yourself. The G/GPUSA largely emphasizes direct action tactics over traditional electoral politics. A majorty of the G/GPUSA delegates and large number of party activists quit the group and bolted to the larger Green Party of the US in 2001 (forming an informal leftist caucus within the Green Party). The small splinter group remaining within the G/GPUSA are more dogmatically Marxist. The G/GPUSA maintain formal local affiliates only Chicago, St. Louis and Philadelphia. The G/GPUSA has fielded a few state and federal candidates over the years – often running them in primaries against candidates affiliated with the larger Green Party of the US. Related G/GPUSA links include Synthesis/Regeneration (party magazine), and Green Politics (quarterly newspaper). For purposes of this hypothetical, it’s the larger and more moderate Green Party that comes to power. The party has “Ten Key Values”: Grassroots Democracy Social Justice Ecological Wisdom Non-violence Decentralization Community-based Economics Feminism Diversity Responsibility Future Focus What, exactly, they mean by each of these, you can find out by clicking on each one, as they’re listed in the right-hand top corner of the party website’s [welcome page.](http://www.gp.org/) For specific policy positions, see the 2004 party platform [here.](http://www.gp.org/platform/2004/) ---
**Author:** ![According\_to\_Pliny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@According\_to\_Pliny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/According_to_Pliny)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2006, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-green-america-be-like/384636/2 "2006-12-18T23:50:49Z")
The only way to win is to appeal to a whole lot of voters. That means getting a lot of middle of the roaders and undecideds aboard. Change is slower than any party platform. If you check any party’s last-time platform at their next convention, you’l notice that lots of it was ignored, but will still reappear again this time around. Platforms are sale flyers for stores. Promise a lot, but after you check out it and see the receipt looks just about the same as last time. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-green-america-be-like/384636/3 "2006-12-19T00:02:48Z")
[QUOTE=According to Pliny] The only way to win is to appeal to a whole lot of voters. That means getting a lot of middle of the roaders and undecideds aboard. Change is slower than any party platform. If you check any party’s last-time platform at their next convention, you’l notice that lots of it was ignored, but will still reappear again this time around. Platforms are sale flyers for stores. Promise a lot, but after you check out it and see the receipt looks just about the same as last time. [/QUOTE] I know, I know. But this, like the other thread, is based on a **hypothetical.** If the Green Party somehow won all or nearly all the marbles and got everything or nearly everything its members want – what then? Later on, I’ll start similar threads WRT to the Socialist Party, the America First Party, and the Constitution Party. (The Reform Party hardly even seems worth discussing in hypothetical terms, any more.) ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-green-america-be-like/384636/4 "2006-12-19T00:34:33Z")
> [@](#): > > What would a Green America be like? **BrainGlutton** , I think you should find and read [Ecotopia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecotopia) by Ernest Callenbach. It gives one view of what a Green Country would be like. In this story it covers all 10 points of the green party. I would almost suspect that Ecotopia was required reading for the founders of the Green Party. You will also like the book, it has a Heinlein feel to it, if Heinlein was a Socialist of course. I am a Green and I have voted Green party many times. I am not comfortable with all ten points. #4. NON-VIOLENCE is hard for a hawk to accept. I am surprised they do not specifically address UHS. If they got power and enacted everything in their agenda, I imagine the system would prove unworkable and they would have to make some large compromises. As long as they focused on point 3. ECOLOGICAL WISDOM, I would be happy with it. In theory a govermnet by Greens should be fair and equatable. It would not discriminate. I would probably lead to have more friends in the world. I do believe in the long run it would lead to a lower economic standard of living but perhaps a better overall standard of living. It would be very tough on the Uber-Rich. I suspect they would fight the Green party as hard as they would fight a socialist or communist party. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-green-america-be-like/384636/5 "2006-12-19T00:38:49Z")
I think there’s an excellent chance the military would take over, as soon as the Greens start making serious efforts to disassemble all nukes and cancel all weapons programs, rationalizing that their oath to preserve the constitution compels them to resist steps that would endanger the constitution by leaving the nation exposed to attack by anyone with a sharp stick. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-green-america-be-like/384636/6 "2006-12-19T00:50:00Z")
Incidentally, the major flaw in _Ecotopia_ is the same one in communism - both suggest that a major political shift is just fine once the country has reached a self-sustaining plateau of infrastructure where all basic needs can be met and no further innovation is necessary. I’m kinda curious how the fictional Ecotopia (comprising of Washington, Oregon and northern California) would recover from the 1989 San Francisco earthquake, since the economic base of the laid-back Pacific Northwest doesn’t look like it has a few billion eco-bucks to spend on rebuilding. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-green-america-be-like/384636/7 "2006-12-19T01:28:37Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] I think there’s an excellent chance the military would take over, as soon as the Greens start making serious efforts to disassemble all nukes and cancel all weapons programs, rationalizing that their oath to preserve the constitution compels them to resist steps that would endanger the constitution by leaving the nation exposed to attack by anyone with a sharp stick. [/QUOTE] Kodos: “Your superior civilization is no match for our puny weapons!” ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-green-america-be-like/384636/8 "2006-12-19T01:59:11Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Incidentally, the major flaw in _Ecotopia_ is the same one in communism - both suggest that a major political shift is just fine once the country has reached a self-sustaining plateau of infrastructure where all basic needs can be met and no further innovation is necessary. I’m kinda curious how the fictional Ecotopia (comprising of Washington, Oregon and northern California) would recover from the 1989 San Francisco earthquake, since the economic base of the laid-back Pacific Northwest doesn’t look like it has a few billion eco-bucks to spend on rebuilding. [/QUOTE] I did mention that I did not think a government based on their 10 principles would actually work. Ecotopia is an interesting piece of Science Fiction, I enjoyed it. I also enjoyed Starship Troopers. I do not think either political system would work. I do believe many of the basic tenets of the Green Party should be endorsed and implemented. I fear we can not step down as a military superpower unless something else would step up. Maybe the EU & North America together could fund a flexible military to share the cost better. It would do little good for the green party to change America and for the Chinese to sweep in and take over the world. The dismantling of mega corps sounds good in principle, but the reality is that they are real power in the world. The Greens would have to tread very carefully or a business & military alliance would Wipe them out. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-green-america-be-like/384636/9 "2006-12-19T02:17:00Z")
I could actually see _Starship Troopers_ long before _Ecotopia_, simply because mandatory military service is not uncommon around the world. I can easily see something along the lines of “All citizens must perform government service” morphing into “In order to get the vote, all citizens must perform government service, though this isn’t mandatory” (or, more easily “you don’t have to do your government service, but you won’t be able to register to vote until you do”). I don’t see the return of Heinlein’s 50s culture anytime soon, mind you. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-green-america-be-like/384636/10 "2006-12-19T02:29:39Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] I could actually see _Starship Troopers_ long before _Ecotopia_, simply because mandatory military service is not uncommon around the world. I can easily see something along the lines of “All citizens must perform government service” morphing into “In order to get the vote, all citizens must perform government service, though this isn’t mandatory” (or, more easily “you don’t have to do your government service, but you won’t be able to register to vote until you do”). I don’t see the return of Heinlein’s 50s culture anytime soon, mind you. [/QUOTE] I’m not sure, seems like Sweden might not be to far from a Green Party Ideal. They are much further along the route to renewable energy resources than we are. They have a more balanced economy with less distance from high to low. It is usually a neutral country with a very small military and a high standard of living. Of course they were probably able to develop in such a way due to the sacrifices of NATO footing the bill during the Cold War. They also have a very low population density and excellent natural resources, especially for Hydro & Wind power. So using them as an example has flaws. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-green-america-be-like/384636/11 "2006-12-19T03:36:14Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] Kodos: “Your superior civilization is no match for our puny weapons!” [/QUOTE] Nitpick : I believe it’s “Your superior **intellect** is no match for our puny weapons!” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-green-america-be-like/384636/12 "2006-12-19T05:22:23Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] **BrainGlutton** , I think you should find and read [Ecotopia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecotopia) by Ernest Callenbach. It gives one view of what a Green Country would be like. In this story it covers all 10 points of the green party. I would almost suspect that Ecotopia was required reading for the founders of the Green Party. You will also like the book, it has a Heinlein feel to it, if Heinlein was a Socialist of course. [/quote] I’ve read _Ecotopia._ And yes, Green ideology certainly seems to combine Socialist and Libertarian elements, so Socialist Heinlein is probably an apt characterization – but then he would probably also have to be Pacifist Heinlein and I just can’t see how that would be Heinlein any more. Annapolis man and all that, you know. Although he might dig Callenbach’s idea of ritualized battles, fought with spears, designed to work off the males’ aggressive impulses with few actual casualties. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-green-america-be-like/384636/13 "2006-12-19T05:25:34Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] I think there’s an excellent chance the military would take over, as soon as the Greens start making serious efforts to disassemble all nukes and cancel all weapons programs, rationalizing that their oath to preserve the constitution compels them to resist steps that would endanger the constitution by leaving the nation exposed to attack by anyone with a sharp stick. [/QUOTE] :dubious: Do you really believe that, considering that the American military (unlike the militaries of **some** countries I could name) has never in all our history rebelled against the authority of civil goverment or sought to become an independent political force in its own right? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-green-america-be-like/384636/14 "2006-12-19T05:28:52Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] Incidentally, the major flaw in _Ecotopia_ is the same one in communism - both suggest that a major political shift is just fine once the country has reached a self-sustaining plateau of infrastructure where all basic needs can be met and no further innovation is necessary. [/QUOTE] Ecotopia is a society where politics is multipartisan and everybody is vigorously engaged in it and TV programming is heavily weighted towards coverage of interactive political debate. I really can’t see it as being hostile to political innovation or experimentation – nor to the same in technology. Only that any technology actually implemented has to meet stringent standards of minimal environmental impact. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-green-america-be-like/384636/15 "2006-12-19T05:31:33Z")
BTW, for another and arguably better literary picture of an America transformed by Green politics, see [_Pacific Edge,_](http://www.amazon.com/Pacific-Edge-Three-Californias-Triptych/dp/0312890389/sr=8-1/qid=1166506252/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/103-5733463-8947052?ie=UTF8&s=books) by Kim Stanley Robinson. Really the most persuasive and plausible utopia I have ever read, FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-green-america-be-like/384636/16 "2006-12-19T05:36:57Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] I fear we can not step down as a military superpower unless something else would step up. [/QUOTE] That’s exactly what Socialist Heinlein would have said. Come to think of it, [url=]Heinlein **was** a socialist in his early years, kindasorta: > [@](#): > > After his discharge, Heinlein attended a few weeks of graduate classes in mathematics and physics at the University of California, Los Angeles, but quit either because of his health or from a desire to enter politics.[5] He supported himself at a series of jobs, including real estate and silver mining. Heinlein was active in Upton Sinclair’s socialist EPIC (End Poverty In California) movement in early 1930s California. When Sinclair gained the Democratic nomination for governor of California in 1934, Heinlein worked actively in the unsuccessful campaign. Heinlein himself ran for the California State Assembly in 1938, but was unsuccessful.[6] In later years, Heinlein kept his socialist past secret, writing about his political experiences coyly, and usually under the veil of fictionalization. In 1954, he wrote: “…many Americans … were asserting loudly that McCarthy had created a ‘reign of terror.’ Are you terrified? I am not, and I have in my background much political activity well to the left of Senator McCarthy’s position.”[7] > > \ > > Heinlein’s writing may appear to have oscillated wildly across the political spectrum. His first novel, For Us, The Living, consists largely of speeches advocating the Social Credit system, and the early story “Misfit” deals with an organization which seems to be Franklin D. Roosevelt’s Civilian Conservation Corps translated into outer space. While Stranger in a Strange Land was embraced by the hippie counterculture, and Glory Road can be read as an antiwar piece, some have deemed Starship Troopers militaristic, and To Sail Beyond the Sunset, published during the Reagan administration, was stridently right-wing. > > Starship Troopers coverThere are, however, certain threads in Heinlein’s political thought that remain constant. A strong current of libertarianism runs through his work, as expressed most clearly in The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress. His early juvenile novels often contain a surprisingly strong anti-authority message, as in his first published novel Rocket Ship Galileo, which has a group of boys blasting off in a rocket ship in defiance of a court order. A similar defiance of a court order to take a moon trip takes place in the short story “Requiem.” In The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, the unjust Lunar Authority that controls the lunar colony is usually referred to simply as “Authority,” which points to an obvious interpretation of the book as a parable for the evils of authority in general, rather than the evils of one particular authority. > > Heinlein was opposed to any encroachment of religion into government; he pilloried organized religion in Job: A Comedy of Justice, and, with more subtlety and ambivalence, in Stranger in a Strange Land. His future history includes a period called the Interregnum, in which a backwoods revivalist becomes dictator of the United States. Positive descriptions of the military (Between Planets, The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, Red Planet, Starship Troopers) tend to emphasize the individual actions of volunteers in the spirit of the Minutemen of colonial America. Conscription and the military as an extension of the government are portrayed in Time Enough for Love, Glory Road, and Starship Troopers as being poor substitutes for the volunteers who, ideally, should be defending a free society. > > To those on the right, Heinlein’s ardent anti-communism during the Cold War era might appear to contradict his earlier efforts in the socialist EPIC and Social Credit movements; however, it should be noted that both the Socialist Party and the Communist Party were very active during the 1930s, and the distinction between socialism and communism was well understood by those on the left. Heinlein spelled out his strong concerns regarding communism in a number of nonfiction pieces, including “Who are the heirs of Patrick Henry?”, an anti-communist polemic published as a newspaper advertisement in 1958; and articles such as “Pravda Means Truth” and “Inside Intourist,” in which he recounted his visit to the USSR and advised Western readers on how to evade official supervision on such a trip. > > Many of Heinlein’s stories explicitly spell out a view of history which could be compared to Marx’s: social structures are dictated by the materialistic environment. Heinlein would perhaps have been more comfortable with a comparison with Frederick Jackson Turner’s frontier thesis. In Red Planet, Doctor MacRae links attempts at gun control to the increase in population density on Mars. (This discussion was edited out of the original version of the book at the insistence of the publisher.) In Farmer in the Sky, overpopulation of Earth has led to hunger, and emigration to Ganymede provides a “life insurance policy” for the species as a whole; Heinlein puts a lecture in the mouth of one of his characters toward the end of the book in which it is explained that the mathematical logic of Malthusianism can lead only to disaster for the home planet. A subplot in Time Enough for Love involves demands by farmers upon Lazarus Long’s bank, which Heinlein portrays as the inevitable tendency of a pioneer society evolving into a more dense (and, by implication, more decadent and less free) society. This episode is an interesting example of Heinlein’s tendency (in opposition to Marx) to view history as cyclical rather than progressive. Another good example of this is The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress, in which a revolution deposes the Authority, but immediately thereafter, the new government falls prey to the inevitable tendency to legislate people’s personal lives, despite the attempts of one of the characters, who describes himself as a “rational anarchist.” OTOH, in his later years Heinlein was very hostile to “back-to-nature freaks” who “can’t do arithmetic.” ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-green-america-be-like/384636/17 "2006-12-19T06:03:29Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Nitpick : I believe it’s “Your superior **intellect** is no match for our puny weapons!” [/QUOTE] [The Simpsons Archive](http://www.snpp.com/episodes/8F02.html) supports you. I was quoting from memory. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-green-america-be-like/384636/18 "2006-12-19T06:32:14Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] :dubious: Do you really believe that, considering that the American military (unlike the militaries of **some** countries I could name) has never in all our history rebelled against the authority of civil goverment or sought to become an independent political force in its own right? [/QUOTE] Elect a Green government (that is to say, elect the Greens as they are right now and not after the years of necessary compromise and wising-up they’d have to do to get elected plausibly, as their European counterparts have done) and I’m willing to bet that could change right quick, so I stand by my hypothetical assessment. > [@](#): > > Ecotopia is a society where politics is multipartisan and everybody is vigorously engaged in it and TV programming is heavily weighted towards coverage of interactive political debate. I really can’t see it as being hostile to political innovation or experimentation – nor to the same in technology. Only that any technology actually implemented has to meet stringent standards of minimal environmental impact. But the infrastructure of Ecotopia (i.e. buildings and roads and whatnot) was all conveniently inherited when, instead of staying and _fighting_ for their property, a huge segment of the population simply left during and after the 1979 revolution. The author describes San Francisco as being fairly quiet and peaceful, but maintaining buildings and roads takes large-scale operations, and with corporations essentially banned and the main business structure consisting of “partnerships” with an effective maximum membership of around 300 (it’s been some time since I read the novel, so some details may be hazy), who exactly is going to keep the buildings upright and the roads paved, holding back the steady inevitable decay and not even counting massive natural disasters like the 1989 quake? The only way Ecotopia can “work” is if 90% of the population leaves and the remaining scavengers simply abandon buildings and roads as they crumble, gradually shrinking away from the cities entirely and setting up small agrarian communities which have no chance of maintaining any kind of effective military. Another cheat: long gun ownership was common and all the able-bodied Ecotopians were effectively members of the “militia” in case the Americans made a second attempt to retake the seceded territories. Of course, since their first had been such a conveniently inept botch, and they were choking in their own pollution too much to mount a second, maybe a high-tech military wasn’t necessary after all. _Ecotopia_ is an interesting blueprint for small scale social structure, and I could vaguely imagine a low-population-density state like Oregon, Washington, Vermont or Maine adopting some of its premises as policy, but a nation that tried would get bent over by the first AK47-toting visitor and, though long vegan and proud of abolishing factory farming long before, would quickly rediscover how to squeal like a pig. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-green-america-be-like/384636/19 "2006-12-19T07:40:02Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] I know, I know. But this, like the other thread, is based on a **hypothetical.** If the Green Party somehow won all or nearly all the marbles and got everything or nearly everything its members want – what then? [/QUOTE] Hell on earth. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2006, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-green-america-be-like/384636/20 "2006-12-19T14:50:04Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] That’s exactly what Socialist Heinlein would have said. Come to think of it, [url=]Heinlein **was** a socialist in his early years, kindasorta: OTOH, in his later years Heinlein was very hostile to “back-to-nature freaks” who “can’t do arithmetic.” [/QUOTE] I would guess that Heinlein’s reaction to the anti-corporation feel of the Green party platform would be negative. I am sure he would not favor a massive reduction of the military. I am sure he was in favor of nuclear power. I believe he would support alternate fuels to go with nuclear to shut down of dirty coal plants. I am aware that very early on he was a socialist, but that did not last long. I believe it changed especially when he hooked up with Virginia. He had become a rabid anti-communist by the fifties. **Weirddave** : Nice contribution. 😉 Jim {I will look for Pacific Edge, as I love the Mars series.} [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-green-america-be-like/384636.md?page=2)