# What would a Libertarian America be like? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 17, 2006, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-libertarian-america-be-like/384557 "2006-12-17T23:35:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-libertarian-america-be-like/384557/121 "2006-12-30T00:18:35Z")
[QUOTE=Steve MB] This is more or less equivalent to asserting that this is the reason we need to beat old ordnance with crowbars, so there is little opportunity for it to just up and explode some day. [/QUOTE] I don’t follow your analogy. It’s more like packing that ordnance in foam, to keep it from being set off. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-libertarian-america-be-like/384557/122 "2006-12-30T00:31:51Z")
[QUOTE=Steve MB] Ability of USSR to control Poland – pretty much absolute (the late Gerald Ford to the contrary notwithstanding). Ability of US to control Poland – pretty much zip. QED. [/QUOTE] But **galen’s** original point was that we have never had the chance to see a communist system develop **without** fierce opposition, embargoes, etc., from capitalist powers. The Soviet bloc **as a whole** was constantly under siege from the West throughout its existence. But you’re talking about Poland vs. Russia as nations, not about communism vs. capitalism as systems. You still lose. Not that I’m defending the Stalinist model of communism as a system; I’m only saying that **galen** has a valid point – under the real historical circumstances, its failure is not necessarily a conclusive test of its value. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-libertarian-america-be-like/384557/123 "2006-12-30T09:55:58Z")
Liberal (or anyone), can I get an answer on the difference between the _essence_ of Liberataria and Anarchism? If mutual consent is the defining characteristic, I don’t see the difference. While I’m asking, I’d love some examples of previous conceptions of non-Capitalist Libertarian ideology. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-libertarian-america-be-like/384557/124 "2006-12-30T14:08:12Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] Liberal (or anyone), can I get an answer on the difference between the _essence_ of Liberataria and Anarchism? If mutual consent is the defining characteristic, I don’t see the difference. [/QUOTE] There are so many different kinds of [anarchism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism) that it’s hard to say. Not to mention the different flavors of [libertarianism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism). However this, from the libertarian link, seems to sum it up fairly well: > [@](#): > > Libertarians generally view constraints imposed by the state on persons or their property (if applicable), beyond the need to penalize infringement of one’s rights by another, as a violation of liberty. Anarchists favor no governmental constraints at all, based on the assumption that rulers and laws are unnecessary because in the absence of government individuals will naturally form self-governing social bonds and rules. In contrast, Big-L-Libertarians consider government necessary for the sole purpose of protecting the rights of the people. This includes protecting people and their property from the criminal acts of others, as well as providing for national defense. > > \ > > Some libertarians favor common law, which they see as less arbitrary and more adaptable than statutory law. The relative benefits of common law evolving toward ever-finer definitions of property rights were articulated by thinkers such as Friedrich Hayek, Richard Epstein, Robert Nozick, and Randy Barnett. Some libertarian thinkers believe that this evolution can define away various “commons” such as pollution or other interactions viewed by some as externalities. “A libertarian society would not allow anyone to injure others by pollution because it insists on individual responsibility.” “Big-L” just means members of the Libertarian Party. And I guess that an “Anarchy Party” would be an oxymoron, no? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-libertarian-america-be-like/384557/125 "2006-12-30T14:46:05Z")
[Anarchism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchism) as such has an ideological history heavily influenced by Marxism – class struggle, smashing capitalism, and all of that. Anarchism grows out of the experiences and politics of **continental** Europe in the 19th and 20th Centuries. Libertarianism is a distinctly Anglo-American ideology, rooted in the small-l libertarian traditions of the political cultures of the English-speaking world, that owes nothing to Marx or Proudhon and much to John Stuart Mill and Thomas Jefferson. [Anarcho-Syndicalism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-syndicalism) is a branch which envisions the factories, etc., being owned and operated by trade unions, or by workers’ soviets, rather than by capitalists or by the state. (Its [flag](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Anarchist_flag.svg) combines communist red with anarchist black.) I’ve never known a professed Libertarian to tout or envision that kind of socioeconomic system. Anarchists were the leading force behind the short-lived [Spanish Revolution](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Revolution) during the [Spanish Civil War.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Civil_War) “I already told you, we’re an anarcho-syndicalist commune! We take it in turns to act as a sort of executive officer for the week . . .” ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-libertarian-america-be-like/384557/126 "2006-12-30T16:24:35Z")
Thanks, guys, but I really wasn’t asking for a history of Anarchism, or how it differs from Libertarianism. I know all that already (did nobody read the Anarchy thread a while back?). What I wanted to know was how **Liberal** ’s idea of what is really at the heart of Liberataria - free association/consent - differs from (no-adjective) Anarchism. [QUOTE=BrainGlutton] I’ve never known a professed Libertarian to tout or envision that kind of socioeconomic system. [/QUOTE] But **Liberal** said > [@](#): > > Although libertarianism is compatible with capitalism, it is also compatible with communism or any other economic system for that matter. I just want him to back it up with a cite or detailed explanation. I’ve not come across non-Capitalist Libertarianis either, it’s always been tied to distinctly Capitalistic frameworks, which would make it the very antithesis of proper Anarchism. But **Lib** ’s statements made me ponder… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-libertarian-america-be-like/384557/127 "2006-12-30T16:50:53Z")
Oh, and this… [QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Libertarianism is a distinctly Anglo-American ideology, rooted in the small-l libertarian traditions of the political cultures of the English-speaking world, that owes nothing to Marx or Proudhon and much to John Stuart Mill and Thomas Jefferson. [/QUOTE] Do yourecall where Marx sat as he wrote his masterwork _Capital_\*? The idea that Anarchism and the worker’s struggle is a Continental movement is a little too pat, IMO. Lots of Americans and Englishmen paid blood for that red flag (or the red part of the red/black one). May Day is Worker’s Day the world over - except the USA. Where did it originate? The USA, that’s where. I do get what you’re trying to say, **BG** , but it’s starting to veer into “National Character”-type arguments that I don’t buy into. Not saying that’s what you said, but I think you sell Anglo-American Anarchism a little short, and puff the Continental influence up a bit much in trying to distinguish Libertarianism from Anarchism. \*The Reading Room of the British Museum in London, that’s where. He’s also buried in London. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-libertarian-america-be-like/384557/128 "2006-12-30T22:46:55Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] I don’t follow your analogy. [/QUOTE] Government is the usual mechanism by which the sheep turn wolf (e.g. a bunch of Germans decided that the Jooos were at fault for their problems, so they elected a government that would get rid of them). ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-libertarian-america-be-like/384557/129 "2006-12-30T23:05:03Z")
[QUOTE=Steve MB] Government is the usual mechanism by which the sheep turn wolf (e.g. a bunch of Germans decided that the Jooos were at fault for their problems, so they elected a government that would get rid of them). [/QUOTE] It’s the usual method because government ( hopefully ) prevents most of the _others_. Eliminating or weakening government control doesn’t hurt the wolves in the slightest; it just means they can eliminate the step where they co-opt or avoid the government, and go straight to preying upon the sheep. That’s precisely what happens when the government decides to look the other way, for one reason or another. If the government decides to ignore the lynching of blacks or the selling of fake medical treatments; people don’t come up with a non-governmental solution, the “wolves” run wild until the government changes it’s collective mind. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2006, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-libertarian-america-be-like/384557/130 "2006-12-30T23:47:29Z")
[QUOTE=MrDibble] Thanks, guys, but I really wasn’t asking for a history of Anarchism, or how it differs from Libertarianism. I know all that already (did nobody read the Anarchy thread a while back?). What I wanted to know was how **Liberal** ’s idea of what is really at the heart of Liberataria - free association/consent - differs from (no-adjective) Anarchism. [/QUOTE] I’m not trying to be snarky, but that wasn’t what you asked for in the post I was responding to. It didn’t read that way, at any rate. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2006, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-libertarian-america-be-like/384557/131 "2006-12-31T12:52:30Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I’m not trying to be snarky, but that wasn’t what you asked for in the post I was responding to. It didn’t read that way, at any rate. [/QUOTE] Yeah, but it was a repeat of an earlier question with a specific context: [QUOTE=MrDibble] [QUOTE=Liberal] The only thing libertarianism really requires in order to be recognizable as libertarianism is voluntary human relations. If a tree is known by its fruit, then libertarianism is known by free and volitional consent. [/QUOTE] What distinguishes this view of Libertarianism from Anarchism? [/QUOTE] I wasn’t dissing your & \*\*BG’\*\*s replies, BTW, nor saying you were _wrong_ on the differences, just saying it wasn’t what I was asking. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2006, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-libertarian-america-be-like/384557/132 "2006-12-31T15:24:21Z")
> [@](#): > > So what? They can hardly do worse damage as regional hegemons than we have done as a global one; and our taxes will go down. I feel you’re naive about political reality. It’s true that America is currently in a low period of our foreign relations. But in China, for example, our current situation would be considered typical - China has invaded several neighbouring countries and has stated it has further plans for expansion. And there’s no popular opposition there as there is in this country - although in China, popular opposition to the government is generally restricted anyway. ---
**Author:** ![LH75](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lh75/32/4438_2.png) [@LH75](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LH75)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2006, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-libertarian-america-be-like/384557/133 "2006-12-31T16:53:42Z")
from my friend John mace’s post: > [@](#): > > Libertarians generally view constraints imposed by the state on persons or their property (if applicable), beyond the need to penalize infringement of one’s rights by another, as a violation of liberty. Anarchists favor no governmental constraints at all, based on the assumption that rulers and laws are unnecessary because in the absence of government individuals will naturally form self-governing social bonds and rules. In contrast, Big-L-Libertarians consider government necessary for the sole purpose of protecting the rights of the people. This includes protecting people and their property from the criminal acts of others, as well as providing for national defense. A society in which governmental enforcement of building and fire codes would be viewed as _“constraints imposed by the state on persons or their property (if applicable), beyond the need to penalize infringement of one’s rights by another, as a violation of liberty”_ would turn most rental property into death traps. Even buying a home would be unsafe. Many government functions, seen by libertarians as _constraints_ are neccesary. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2006, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-libertarian-america-be-like/384557/134 "2006-12-31T20:32:33Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] But in China, for example, our current situation would be considered typical - China has invaded several neighbouring countries and has stated it has further plans for expansion. [/QUOTE] Apart from Taiwan (and whether a PRC takeover there would count as “expansion” is debatable), what territories has China expressed an intention to acquire? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2006, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-libertarian-america-be-like/384557/135 "2006-12-31T21:46:24Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] That’s precisely what happens when the government decides to look the other way, for one reason or another. If the government decides to ignore the lynching of blacks or the selling of fake medical treatments; people don’t come up with a non-governmental solution, the “wolves” run wild until the government changes it’s collective mind. [/QUOTE] However, those also depend on government (e.g. the Klan sympathizers who controlled post-Reconstruction governments noticed what a bitch it is to clean blood out of white sheets, and responded by enacting some gun-control Black Codes). ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2006, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-libertarian-america-be-like/384557/136 "2006-12-31T22:03:32Z")
[QUOTE=Steve MB] However, those also depend on government (e.g. the Klan sympathizers who controlled post-Reconstruction governments noticed what a bitch it is to clean blood out of white sheets, and responded by enacting some gun-control Black Codes). [/QUOTE] No, they don’t; “wolves” do just fine in a society without laws; they, after all, are the ones who get anything they want. Guns don’t help the “sheep” much, because the “wolves”, by their nature, tend to shoot first. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2006, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-libertarian-america-be-like/384557/137 "2006-12-31T22:41:00Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] No, they don’t; “wolves” do just fine in a society without laws; they, after all, are the ones who get anything they want. Guns don’t help the “sheep” much, because the “wolves”, by their nature, tend to shoot first. [/QUOTE] As we’ve seen in Iraq, where a heavily armed populace has proven (1) before the war, insufficient to resist the government, and (2) since the war, insufficient to keep order. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-libertarian-america-be-like/384557/138 "2007-01-01T00:07:30Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Is it [this](http://www.isfdb.org/cgi-bin/title.cgi?47287) one? (Can’t seem to find the actual text online anywhere.) [/QUOTE] Missed this earlier. I believe so. A good writer, even if I don’t like his political philosophy ( or at least what his characters in the Darwin’s Children series believe ). ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-libertarian-america-be-like/384557/139 "2007-01-01T00:24:51Z")
> [@](#): > > Apart from Taiwan (and whether a PRC takeover there would count as “expansion” is debatable), what territories has China expressed an intention to acquire? China is heavily involved in the dispute over ownership of various islands in the South China Sea. China disputes the Japanese ownership of the Senkaku Islands and the Indian ownership of the “South Tibet” region. China has also made claims, based on historical ownership, of territory currently part of Russia and Mongolia. I believe there are also similar claims made about territory belonging to Bhutan, Kazkhstan, Nepal, and North Korea. In fact, I think China has a border dispute with literally every country that it shares a border with. Some official Chinese maps show all of these disputed areas as part of China being held under temporary foreign occupation. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2007, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-libertarian-america-be-like/384557/140 "2007-01-01T01:31:38Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] China is heavily involved in the dispute over ownership of various islands in the South China Sea. China disputes the Japanese ownership of the Senkaku Islands and the Indian ownership of the “South Tibet” region. China has also made claims, based on historical ownership, of territory currently part of Russia and Mongolia. I believe there are also similar claims made about territory belonging to Bhutan, Kazkhstan, Nepal, and North Korea. In fact, I think China has a border dispute with literally every country that it shares a border with. Some official Chinese maps show all of these disputed areas as part of China being held under temporary foreign occupation. [/QUOTE] !!! They don’t have **enough** trouble trying to govern restive non-Han populations?! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-libertarian-america-be-like/384557.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-libertarian-america-be-like/384557.md?page=8)