# What would a society be like without a prison? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 29, 2012, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-society-be-like-without-a-prison/617195 "2012-03-29T19:38:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![panaccione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/94ad74/32.png) [@panaccione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panaccione)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-society-be-like-without-a-prison/617195/41 "2012-03-30T19:51:16Z")
> [@florez](#): > > Society without prison, and more forgiveness, and care for criminals…try telling that to victims, or their families. > Of course, some criminals may be mentally ill, and need care, but others may be violent psychopaths. > The current prison system evolved from public hangings and floggings, people trapped in stocks, and displayed in dirty cages. > So, treatment of prisoners has been steadily improving, but many problems still exist. > Private ownership of prisons, in many states, may be the answer to over crowded facilities, but prison business as big business? Where is the incentive to seek alternative methods, and positive change? More criminals, no problem, more prisons, more profits? > So, like the OP, I see need for change, but I also believe that some people have to be incarcerated. > For example Charles Manson. Ok, Charles Manson – good point. I think I concede. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-society-be-like-without-a-prison/617195/42 "2012-03-30T20:13:53Z")
> [@Clothahump](#): > > We pretty much have that now. People rarely do time and when they do, they rarely complete a full sentence. Say what? We have a huge prison population, the [highest incarceration rate in the world](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prison_populations_by_country). Which is a major reason why people seldom serve their full sentences; we are so enthusiastic about throwing people in prison that there just isn’t _room_. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2012, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-society-be-like-without-a-prison/617195/43 "2012-03-31T02:00:01Z")
Heck, the casual use of plea bargaining shows you don’t even have the resources to _process_ them all, long before you get around to imprisoning them. ---
**Author:** ![curioushat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b9e5f3/32.png) [@curioushat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/curioushat)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2012, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-society-be-like-without-a-prison/617195/44 "2012-04-03T17:04:42Z")
Instead of prisons, rehab centers. Instead of serving sentences, being forced to go to behavioral counseling. Maybe a bunch reoffend, but if you put them in prison, then release them after x years, they will still reoffend. Society would be a) better When you arrest people you are only catching a fraction of those that commit the offenses. Do speed traps reduce the number of speeders or do most people have a commitment to following the law? ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-society-be-like-without-a-prison/617195/45 "2012-04-04T13:52:48Z")
Fill the graveyards. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-society-be-like-without-a-prison/617195/46 "2012-04-04T14:49:23Z")
Ultimately, the options are: 1. Don’t punish crimes. 2. Apply corporal punishment to criminals. 3. Imprison criminals. 4. Execute criminals. Option 1: Obviously, the problem is that a significant number of people would routinely commit crimes if they knew they could get away with it, causing society to break down into a Hobbesean war of all against all. Option 2: I can actually see a case for this as an alternative for some minor crimes (for one thing, it might be a more effective deterrent for the sort of petty offenses that are often the first steps toward career criminality). However, it would break down for more serious crimes: corporal punishments that would fit the crime would be so severe that it would be more honest to invoke Option 4 explicitly. Option 3: The current system, ruled out by the OP. Option 4: Even people who accept the death penalty as a reasonable option reserve it for the most severe crimes, which goes back to selecting one of the three previous options for everything else. ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-society-be-like-without-a-prison/617195/47 "2012-04-10T15:40:26Z")
> [@TruCelt](#): > > Are we just talking about prison buildings here? Because I could see us simply declaring all small islands to be points of banishment. That’s what mostly was done - not “you must die” but simply “you can’t live here.” Exactly. Although institutional prisons are a recent development, exile and banishment as old as the Greeks (older if you believe the Bible), and pretty much the same as prison (better, if you consider the costs to the state). The problem today, of course, is that true exile is impractical. But in the ancient world it was an effective substitute for modern prisons (at least for more serious crimes) ---
**Author:** ![JoelUpchurch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f05b48/32.png) [@JoelUpchurch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JoelUpchurch)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-society-be-like-without-a-prison/617195/48 "2012-04-10T16:54:48Z")
In Larry Niven’s Organ Bank stories, most crimes resulted in the criminals being broken down for parts. The jails existed for people who hadn’t been convicted yet. This was a popular system, because there was always a demand for organ transplants and most crimes were converted to capital offenses. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-society-be-like-without-a-prison/617195/49 "2012-04-10T17:07:09Z")
> [@curioushat](#): > > Instead of prisons, rehab centers. Instead of serving sentences, being forced to go to behavioral counseling. Maybe a bunch reoffend, but if you put them in prison, then release them after x years, they will still reoffend. Isn’t a mental institution just a different type of prison? (And by extension, wouldn’t any rehab center for violent criminals quickly become a mental institution?) I’m all for focusing on rehabilitation rather than punishment, but it’s still a “confinement-style” sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-society-be-like-without-a-prison/617195/50 "2012-04-10T17:28:12Z")
**Scotty Mo** , I wonder if you could elaborate. What do you believe would happen under this proposal? Imagine two people. 1. Joe rapes and murders a 15-year-old girl. He’s tried and convicted and set free. What do you think would happen next? 2. Jen shoplifts. She’s tried and convicted of shoplifting and set free. What do you think would happen next? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-society-be-like-without-a-prison/617195/51 "2012-04-10T17:33:59Z")
The good part about prisons is that they serve the function of incarceration, keeping dangerous people away from the rest of society. The bad part is everything else. I don’t think it’s the most effective means of punishment. Torture and execution would be much more effective. It certainly is terrible at rehabilitation. Any beneficial rehabiliation that occurs in prisons may be cancelled out by the ‘crime school’ environment and released prisoners relegated to a life of poverty where they are more likely to commit more crimes. In times past, exile was often a punishment, which meant passing the problem to the next town over. So there may be better ways to integrate prisons into the criminal justice system, but doing without them seems absurd. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-society-be-like-without-a-prison/617195/52 "2012-04-10T17:47:22Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > The bad part is everything else. Prisons kept me gainfully employed for several decades. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2012, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-society-be-like-without-a-prison/617195/53 "2012-04-10T21:40:24Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Prisons kept me gainfully employed for several decades. I don’t have a problem with public sector jobs for reasonable purposes, and as I mentioned, no prison means lots of problems, so you should still be employed. But don’t you think the way prisons operate now leaves something to be desired? And couldn’t some things be done that would make life easier for the prison guards and administration as well? And, you’re not advocating locking up more people to create more prison jobs are you? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-society-be-like-without-a-prison/617195/54 "2012-04-11T00:19:46Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I don’t have a problem with public sector jobs for reasonable purposes, and as I mentioned, no prison means lots of problems, so you should still be employed. But don’t you think the way prisons operate now leaves something to be desired? And couldn’t some things be done that would make life easier for the prison guards and administration as well? > > And, you’re not advocating locking up more people to create more prison jobs are you? Quite the opposite. Several times on this board, I’ve said that I personally would line to repeal pretty much all laws against “victimless” crimes. That would greatly reduce the number of people serving time (admittedly, it would have a much larger effect on jails than prisons). I’m all in favor of rehabilitation. I’m in favor of curing cancer too. But despite massive efforts, we haven’t figured out a general solution to either problem. I’ve also said you won’t ever solve the problem of crime in the prisons. That makes no more sense than trying to fight disease at the mortuary. Crime needs to be solved out in the community. Prisons are the result of the problem, not its cause. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2012, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-society-be-like-without-a-prison/617195/55 "2012-04-11T03:47:36Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Quite the opposite. Several times on this board, I’ve said that I personally would line to repeal pretty much all laws against “victimless” crimes. That would greatly reduce the number of people serving time (admittedly, it would have a much larger effect on jails than prisons). > > I’m all in favor of rehabilitation. I’m in favor of curing cancer too. But despite massive efforts, we haven’t figured out a general solution to either problem. > > I’ve also said you won’t ever solve the problem of crime in the prisons. That makes no more sense than trying to fight disease at the mortuary. Crime needs to be solved out in the community. Prisons are the result of the problem, not its cause. I’m trying to find the point of disagreement here, but I keep missing it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-a-society-be-like-without-a-prison/617195.md?page=2)