# What would an American "civil war" look like? **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [July 3, 2018, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-american-civil-war-look-like/817213 "2018-07-03T03:28:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-american-civil-war-look-like/817213/121 "2018-07-05T18:55:43Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > So you think that the big money backers of the Republican party want a civil war and would support all of the right-wing media in declaring one? No, not explicitly. But they’ve been sowing the seeds of today’s divisions since the 90s. So far, they’ve profited in political terms (and probably in monetary ones, too), but long-term they may not be able to control the monster they’ve hatched. If the scenario I described happened (Dem captures White House, say), I have no doubt the jackasses at Fox News would start challenging the legitimacy of the vote before the sun rose the next day, without giving two thoughts to what consequences might ensue. The GOP, in their short-sightedness, might just pile on. Then all bets are off. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-american-civil-war-look-like/817213/122 "2018-07-05T19:00:31Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > If the scenario I described happened (Dem captures White House, say), I have no doubt the jackasses at Fox News would start challenging the legitimacy of the vote before the sun rose the next day, without giving two thoughts to what consequences might ensue. The GOP, in their short-sightedness, might just pile on. Then all bets are off. We’ve already been through that. It didn’t get violent until after the Fox candidate won the White House. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-american-civil-war-look-like/817213/123 "2018-07-05T19:01:50Z")
> [@Silver\_lining](#): > > Luckily un-employment is at a historic low right now … Yes, unemployment has been trending down since 2010. The Obama economy has been very good for America. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-american-civil-war-look-like/817213/124 "2018-07-05T19:05:22Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > Google Translate can’t handle that one. Little help for us future Canadians? Essentually a stream of vulgarities that in this case I’m using as exclamations. You can eat beauty in the sense that if you can hunt, fish, grow a garden, etc, you can eat. You can eat lobster and haddock all year round, for virtually nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-american-civil-war-look-like/817213/125 "2018-07-05T19:09:22Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > Google Translate can’t handle that one. Little help for us future Canadians? He’s just [praying](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quebec_French_profanity) for a peaceful outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-american-civil-war-look-like/817213/126 "2018-07-05T19:10:55Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > The real “war” would be a heartbreaking insurgency in the south, broken down largely along racial lines. Here we’d answer the question of who the Air Force would bomb - Southern military formations besieging and attacking non-white enclaves. I can’t guess how the air supremacy war would go down. It would depend which way the Air Force white evangelicals break. Much depends on how white evangelicals align, both in reality and the hypothetical. The grip of white evangelicals on the Air Force has been exagerrated by the behavior of a handful of zealots. Both of the generals who are and were the current and former Chiefs of Staff of the Air Force, are Jewish. The Air Force also has always had a large African-American presence. You’re also forgetting about the Navy and Marine Corps, whose aviators are just as skilled if not better than those of the Air Force, and who likewise include many African-Americans and Jews in their ranks and who are not going to bomb black people on the side of white supremacists. Honestly I think that can safely be said of virtually _all_ Air Force and Navy aviators and high tier operators of all fields. Any members of this fraternity who would ever drop bombs or launch missiles literally in support of white supremacist militias, are fucked-up outliers who would be totally scorned by most of their colleagues. This scenario is getting more and more outlandish with each poast. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-american-civil-war-look-like/817213/127 "2018-07-05T19:13:50Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > We’ve already been through that. It didn’t get violent until after the Fox candidate won the White House. Yes, but now that the deplorables have had their taste of victory, they’ll be ten times worse when they taste defeat. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-american-civil-war-look-like/817213/128 "2018-07-05T19:23:14Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > As I said before, why would the people suffering from high unemployment start a civil war at extreme risk and cost to themselves instead of just voting for someone willing to do something about their situation? It’s one thing to not want to vote for a third party if you think it might let the ‘other guy’ win, it’s another to choose to take to the streets to fight the most powerful army on the planet instead of just voting. If you are unemployed and hungry now, then waiting a few years to vote for someone who may be willing to do something about it may not be a valid option. That is assuming of course, that voting is even something that is an option at that point, whether through disenfranchisement or even universal suspension of elections. There are none more powerful than the powerless, with nothing left to lose. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-american-civil-war-look-like/817213/129 "2018-07-05T19:52:26Z")
What you’d see in that scenario is, 1. a lot more people joining the military (the Space Force is going to need a million expendable TIE Fighter pilots to get blown up in space with a loud (!) burst of flame (!!) and infantrymen to wear useless white plastic armor and fall off of ledges.) And 2, lots of people running side hustles who wouldn’t otherwise be, including selling contraband items. You’d have this persisting for quite a while before it ever reached the stage where unemployment could ever potentially lead to civil war. ---
**Author:** ![Lamoral](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lamoral/32/16078_2.png) [@Lamoral](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamoral)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-american-civil-war-look-like/817213/130 "2018-07-05T19:54:22Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > If you are unemployed and hungry now, then waiting a few years to vote for someone who may be willing to do something about it may not be a valid option. Hunger is not a problem in America in any meaningful way. Numerous other problems with diet, yes. Not hunger. You know how we know this? Because when hunger is actually a problem in a country, everyone knows it. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-american-civil-war-look-like/817213/131 "2018-07-05T20:37:27Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > Hunger is not a problem in America in any meaningful way. Numerous other problems with diet, yes. Not hunger. Because of social programs that progressives pushed for, and conservatives want to cut. > [@](#): > > You know how we know this? Because when hunger is actually a problem in a country, everyone knows it. And people will know it, because there will be a civil war. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-american-civil-war-look-like/817213/132 "2018-07-06T04:11:30Z")
> [@Akaj](#): > > How’s this for a fun-to-imagine scenario: the New England states secede and apply for admission to Canada? [checks location] Works for me! ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-american-civil-war-look-like/817213/133 "2018-07-06T11:55:32Z")
> [@Lamoral](#): > > The grip of white evangelicals on the Air Force has been exagerrated by the behavior of a handful of zealots. Both of the generals who are and were the current and former Chiefs of Staff of the Air Force, are Jewish. The Air Force also has always had a large African-American presence. You’re also forgetting about the Navy and Marine Corps, whose aviators are just as skilled if not better than those of the Air Force, and who likewise include many African-Americans and Jews in their ranks and who are not going to bomb black people on the side of white supremacists. Honestly I think that can safely be said of virtually _all_ Air Force and Navy aviators and high tier operators of all fields. Any members of this fraternity who would ever drop bombs or launch missiles literally in support of white supremacist militias, are fucked-up outliers who would be totally scorned by most of their colleagues. This scenario is getting more and more outlandish with each poast. I didn’t suggest the AF would support white supremacist militias. Rather the opposite, the white supremacist paramilitaries would be the AF’s target, _if_ the AF even got involved to that extent. If the AF doesn’t get involved, then air power would be largely uncontested, and the remaining ground/air support units could do some heinous stuff. I deliberately didn’t talk about the Navy or Marines because I know little about their cultural composition. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-american-civil-war-look-like/817213/134 "2018-07-06T12:03:44Z")
There could be a full-on civil war at some point, but what’s more possible in the foreseeable future is widespread unrest and a breakdown of political order. If oligarchs continue to make disproportionate gains in income and wealth during times of economic expansion while the middle class and low-wage earners suffer disproportionate losses of jobs, income, and wealth during times of economic contraction, then we’ll eventually have essentially no middle class, or at minimum a middle class that is less visible. People who are economically weak are in less of a position to demand things like health care. They’re in less of a position to attend university. They’re in less of a position to protest usury. They’re in less of a position to demand affordable housing. Over time they become invisible. They’re just trying to find income and trying to get by. They become preoccupied with their own desperation and pay less attention to democratic norms. See, loss of economic power is also the loss of political power; it’s the loss of democratic influence, one bankrupt or financially distressed person at a time. In a sense, they (we) become indebted to the political class because regardless of whether or not the system is labeled “democratic”, there is no true democracy unless the great masses of people have some sort of equal standing. The rest of us become indebted to a political class because economically, everyone becomes more dependent on how the elite decide to spend the capital resources they possess or have access to. If a few people the vast majority of wealth, then the entire economy depends on the decisions they make. That is not democracy in fact even if it is democracy in name. That’s de facto indebtedness, probably in addition to the increasing levels of borrowing debt they’ve already incurred just to keep up the appearance of being in the middle class and living the middle class life. The ruling elite are acutely aware of imbalance and are living in constant fear of backlash. So they will try to keep up the appearances of having a democracy. We’ll still have votes, but increasingly, the game of democracy will be played according to their rules. Even if they lose an election or two, they’ll do everything they can to undermine the short-term success of the opposition party. To use a term that’s entered the political lexicon here lately, they’ll use procedural warfare to disrupt and reverse any gains. They’ll use political gridlock. They’ll use the courts. They might even use the Constitution if they have enough political power. They’ll use a “democratic” system that they control to make everyone else think that democracy is unattainable and that it’s a joke to even think about getting it. And that’s when a sense of collective desperation begins to settle in. That’s when the political atmosphere becomes explosive, because when the vast majority of people lose confidence and faith in a government to provide economic opportunity and justice, people will inevitably demand that the entire system be scrapped. It’s just a matter of how many people decide that it’s worth it to risk their own lives and jail to fight the system. That number depends on how dire the situation is for the average person. If we’re talking about unemployment at 10-12% and median incomes stagnating and gradually sinking toward low-middle class, then crime might go up but that probably doesn’t portend widespread outrage. But if 50-75% of people are living in serious economic distress, to the point where they’re wondering if they’ll even have food and clean water for the day, then we’ve got a problem. If long-term unemployment for young men in their 20s and 30s skyrockets to record levels, we’ve got a problem. I doubt we’ll see a widespread regional conflict between states, or a conflict between urban and rural America. Financial pain will be widespread and felt by all. We might unfortunately have different opinions on the culprits for that pain, and I expect that situation to be exploited by the financial elite for as long as they can get away with it. I would expect propaganda campaigns that implicate ethnic minorities and immigrants, or people of certain religious affiliations. We could see a war on higher education. Right wing extremism will be a problem, and so too will left wing extremism in response. This is the real danger I see possible on the horizon. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-american-civil-war-look-like/817213/135 "2018-07-06T14:06:45Z")
I think we’ve been in a low level civil war for some time; an Oklahoma City bombing here, an abortion clinic doctor shot there, a congress person shot every once in a while, plus Charlottesville. If you want to know what it will look like, look around. ---
**Author:** ![Profound\_Gibberish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/65b543/32.png) [@Profound\_Gibberish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Profound_Gibberish)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-american-civil-war-look-like/817213/136 "2018-07-06T16:38:49Z")
As a previous poster said, “The Troubles” are the most likely scenario. Targeted bombings, night raids, drive-by killings. Most Americans, fortunately, are too lazy and risk-averse to jeopardize their lives. The fringe will always be the fringe and how mobilized they get will depend on the violence committed by the other side. As an Army veteran, I agree with many posters that the military will stay out of it. Secure and defend infrastructure and other important assets, but no active engagement unless engaged. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-american-civil-war-look-like/817213/137 "2018-07-06T17:09:27Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > If you are unemployed and hungry now, then waiting a few years to vote for someone who may be willing to do something about it may not be a valid option. So your scenario requires that the unemployment rate is going to jump from ‘historically low’ to ‘much higher than during the Great Depression’ within the span of a single election? And that the US economy goes through a massive restructuring such that cheap, calorie dense food is not readily available, plus that all food aid programs and private charities distributing food grind to a standstill within the span of that single election? > [@](#): > > That is assuming of course, that voting is even something that is an option at that point, whether through disenfranchisement or even universal suspension of elections. And also requires the US government to completely abandon the rule of law and alter itself in a fundamental manner. > [@](#): > > There are none more powerful than the powerless, with nothing left to lose. That’s the point I’m making, people in America today are not actually powerless, and do have a lot to lose. Your scenario requires a massive and rapid change in the economy and government beyond any precedent in US history before the civil war comes about. It’s certainly not something that comes from current trends. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-american-civil-war-look-like/817213/138 "2018-07-06T17:11:28Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > I think we’ve been in a low level civil war for some time; an Oklahoma City bombing here, an abortion clinic doctor shot there, a congress person shot every once in a while, plus Charlottesville. If you want to know what it will look like, look around. If you’re going to call that a ‘low level civil war’, then we’ve never actually not been in one since the founding of the country. Generally ‘sporadic politically motivated violence and occasional demonstrations’ is not what people mean by a civil war; by that standard most of Europe is involved in a much more nasty civil war than the US is, with no signs of abatement. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-american-civil-war-look-like/817213/139 "2018-07-06T17:31:38Z")
The aftermath will probably look like “The Postman”. ---
**Author:** ![Delicious](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dbc845/32.png) [@Delicious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Delicious)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2018, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-american-civil-war-look-like/817213/140 "2018-07-06T18:21:03Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Meh… the threat of college-educated chemists and mechanical engineers depends on trade and economy. As long as I can get Amazon deliveries, theoretically, potentially, I’m a very dangerous man. But if the economy is diverted to beans and bullets, there’s not much I can do. And I can’t imagine even a state-supported Confederacy or Union would invent anything much worse than the US invented in any given month in the 1960’s. > > Who does China like in this scenario? So much depends on this. But even then, does the Navy break north or south? That’s why you need biologists, get me some ferrets, pigs & ducks with some ill folk to sneeze on them and future people will refer to the Spanish flu as “the not so bad flu”. _disclaimer_ Delicious atrocities Incorporated only guarantees millions of deaths, targeting is the responsibility of the end user, vaccine not included [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-american-civil-war-look-like/817213.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-american-civil-war-look-like/817213.md?page=8)