# What would an "illegal nuclear strike order" be? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 18, 2017, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023 "2017-11-18T21:37:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023/21 "2017-11-19T16:14:20Z")
“He wouldn’t/couldn’t do that-it just doesn’t work that way” stopped being funny on Inauguration Day. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023/22 "2017-11-19T16:29:09Z")
> [@Tripler](#): > > That whoosh you heard was one of my W88/Mk 5s sailing over your head. You completely missed the point. > > In retrospect however, if the Congress did enact such a set of laws they’d be rendered moot because the POTUS (despite the War Powers Resolution of '73) can initiate military action _immediately_, basically putting us in a de facto state of war. > > I’m curious on what checks and balances Congress could put on the POTUS to limit such things, especially in the case of a nuclear release. I’m not talking about one officer taking it upon himself to declare it an ‘illegal order’ or simply feigning that it’s not the President in order to deflect the orders. The system is what it is. What could Congress do to change it? Contrary to your assumptions, the actual power the President has to order a nuclear strike is _not_ from the Constitution, but a law passed by Congress. The Atomic Energy Act of 1946. Here’s a [lengthy discussion](https://www.armscontrol.org/act/2009_5/Lanouette) on the background behind it. So yes, a legislative solution is possible. ‘All’ Congress has to do is Amend that act to specify the exact requirements for the use of nuclear weapons to be no first use without the consent of Congress. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023/23 "2017-11-19T17:41:56Z")
Aside from issues of nuking a site in the US, wouldn’t any foreign action carry the possibility that the prez is privy to information not available even to a guy like the one quoted in the OP? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023/24 "2017-11-19T17:53:24Z")
> [@Tripler](#): > > In retrospect however, if the Congress did enact such a set of laws they’d be rendered moot because the POTUS (despite the War Powers Resolution of '73) can initiate military action _immediately_, basically putting us in a de facto state of war. > > I’m curious on what checks and balances Congress could put on the POTUS to limit such things, especially in the case of a nuclear release. I’m not talking about one officer taking it upon himself to declare it an ‘illegal order’ or simply feigning that it’s not the President in order to deflect the orders. The system is what it is. What could Congress do to change it? > > Tripler > A legislative solution, maybe? The system works well when the POTUS is stable. The present president is demonstrativley not stable, which puts you and the world at great risk. The congressional solutions are either to impeach and convict under your federal consititution’s article 2 section 4, or to to replace section 4 of your federal constitution’s section 25th amendment. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023/25 "2017-11-19T18:48:13Z")
> [@asahi](#): > > The media took a relatively ordinary interaction and blew it out of proportion. As LSL pretty much already said, the commander is simply stating what is probably already fairly-well established, which is that a president, contrary to popular opinion, can’t just wake up one morning and order his commanders to nuke California or Mexico. Any launch order has to be consistent with legal acts of war, both with regard to the USMCJ and applicable international laws (Geneva, etc). Exactly. And what I think that particular general is trying to say is that if the President unilaterally decided to escalate to nuclear out of a fit of pique or irritation at some snarky comment from N. Korea, that would probably count as unlawful, based on the lack of proportionality, threat, etc… ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023/26 "2017-11-19T18:51:02Z")
An illegal nuclear strike would be Traitor Trump waking up one day, seeing more proof of his perfidy splashed throughout the news and to distract the public, order a nuclear strike on Pyongyang, particularly if Kim had just called him out as a wanker again the day before. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2017, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023/27 "2017-11-19T18:56:17Z")
Is there such a thing as DEFCON, and would it have an effect on responsiveness? I mean, if the person on the other side of the football looks up and sees a that the alert level might not justify the launch, would he be likely to get a secondary confirmation? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023/28 "2017-11-20T01:26:12Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > So the most probable scenario I keep imagining is it’s 4:30 am. Kim Jong Un Tweets a picture of himself holding his daughter’s hands next to a life sized cutout of Trumps’ hands. Trump tweets back that enough is enough, one more insult and he’ll show North Korea the full “fire and fury” the United States is capable of. Kim Jong tweets back that Trump is all bluster and calls him a bad name. > > Trump asks the marine standing outside his bedroom door for the bag. He digs around in his pants pockets in his laundry hamper and finds the credit card code card with his codes. There’s a phone in the bag and a binder of strike options, he flips it open to North Korea’s section and goes down the list of mega-tonnage options. > > He then picks up that phone, calls Norad, and asks for the #2 special, delivered immediately. A multiple ICBM strike on Pyongyang and an ICBM allocated for every possible government command center Kim Jong is known to use. > > So would this order be illegal or not? It’s a request for the immediate incineration of several million civilians. This is a legal order. The guys in the silos and submarines and bomber wings would follow the pre-approved operations plans. That’s why we don’t elect people to President who may not have the country’s best interest in mind. ---
**Author:** ![E-DUB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/e-dub/32/403_2.png) [@E-DUB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-DUB)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023/29 "2017-11-20T01:50:45Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Someone impersonating the president giving such a order would certainly qualify as illegal (I hope). How about someone just impersonating _a_ President? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023/30 "2017-11-20T02:08:22Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > That’s why we don’t elect people to President who may not have the country’s best interest in mind. Bwahahahaha. _Who’s WE Kemosabe?_ ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023/31 "2017-11-20T02:11:31Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Bwahahahaha Not sure what the sarcasm tag is 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023/32 "2017-11-20T02:49:33Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > This is a legal order. The guys in the silos and submarines and bomber wings would follow the pre-approved operations plans. > … The folks with keys will launch when told. The people who can determine the legality of the order, and pass it along or not, are the high ranking folks up at the NCA level and in the national command centers. Those are two very different sets of folks with very different responsibilities and access to very different data. > [@Slash1972](#): > > … > That’s why we don’t elect people to President who may not have the country’s best interest in mind. At least prior to 2016 we didn’t. It is precisely because we have the President we do that suddenly concerns about illegal orders are to the fore. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023/33 "2017-11-20T02:52:30Z")
According to [this](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Command_Authority): > [@](#): > > Authorization of a nuclear or strategic attack[edit] > Only the President can direct the use of nuclear weapons by U.S. armed forces, including the Single Integrated Operational Plan (SIOP). While the President does have unilateral authority as commander-in-chief to order that nuclear weapons be used for any reason at any time, the actual procedures and technical systems in place for authorizing the execution of a launch order requires a secondary confirmation under a two-man rule, as the President’s order is subject to secondary confirmation by the Secretary of Defense. If the Secretary of Defense does not concur, then the President may in his sole discretion fire the Secretary. The Secretary of Defense has legal authority to approve the order, but cannot veto it. It really was a GQ answer, though a lot of other stuff was brought up. The President doesn’t need congressional approval, as other posters have asserted. Under the two man rule, he just needs the Sec Def (or whoever is next in the chain) to agree then it’s nukes away. People…this is why it’s crucial we elect sane and rational folks to be President. It’s freaking scary that Trump has this power, but have it he does. Hopefully Mattis will be the check on anything really insane that Trump might attempt. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023/34 "2017-11-20T03:39:20Z")
So if the President is trying to actually do this - fire nukes over a tweet or is acting even more incoherent than usual and asking to end the world - who in the White House can actually have him taken out of power for mental incompetence? Does it take a majority of the cabinet to agree to do this? Specific members? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023/35 "2017-11-20T04:01:16Z")
> **[When does the POTUS get to nuke somebody?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=667980)** > > In the recent thread concerning our likely response to a nuclear blackmail threat, there were the usual assortment of “nuke them back to the stone age” responses. Trying to avoid the philosophical question of whether or not we should nuke somebody,... > [@Stranger On A Train](#): > > Kissinger once claimed that Nixon was tearing around on a drunken rampage and he had to instruct the Joint Chiefs not to accept any orders from him. Of course, Kissinger also likes to spin outrageous stories for his own entertainment. But it wouldn’t have been totally out of character for Dick to have a profane discussion about nuking China, “but of course we wouldn’t _do that_.” ---
**Author:** ![Beckdawrek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beckdawrek/32/3647_2.png) [@Beckdawrek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beckdawrek)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023/36 "2017-11-20T05:06:31Z")
I keep thinking of the inability of the Air force to scramble up any fighter jets on 9/11. And the lie about WMB before ‘W’ bombed Iraq. I am not sure I trust any of them. Let alone the POTUS, we are doomed, I tell you! Btw, nice work there LSLguy! ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023/37 "2017-11-20T14:23:24Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > The folks with keys will launch when told. The people who can determine the legality of the order, and pass it along or not, are the high ranking folks up at the NCA level and in the national command centers. > > Those are two very different sets of folks with very different responsibilities and access to very different data If it comes from the President authorizing the use of nuclear weapons against a foreign country, it’s legal. > [@](#): > > It is precisely because we have the President we do that suddenly concerns about illegal orders are to the fore. Yep. Kind of scary. And the reason I didn’t vote for him. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023/38 "2017-11-20T14:50:37Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > If it comes from the President authorizing the use of nuclear weapons against a foreign country, it’s legal. > … You keep insisting this. It’s not that simple. The US is signatory to various treaties on the conduct of warfare. Which have the force of US law. Post #9 contains a link to a small 250 page summary of DoD thinking on the legalities of war. After you’ve digested that info, please come back. ---
**Author:** ![Morgenstern](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Morgenstern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgenstern)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023/39 "2017-11-20T15:13:03Z")
I like to think that there will be a Denzel Washington in the conn of every sub such as there was in _Crimson Tide_. Especially when there is the slightest change the president is the least bit unstable. Didn’t feel that way until 2017, but I certainly do now. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2017, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023/40 "2017-11-20T15:24:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Senegoid** : > > A separate question is enforceability: Even if there are some cases where a Prez-ordered nuke strike is illegal, who will determine that, and what will anyone do about it anyway? Can anyone stop a Prez from ordering an illegal strike? (Or, can anyone stop such an order from being carried out?) Plenty of people _can_ stop such an order from being carried out; specifically, all of the people who actually would be carrying it out. The President doesn’t have a literal launch button in The Football: He has a phone. With that phone, he would call someone high up in the military. Who would in turn call up people on the next level of the chain of command, all the way through until you eventually get to the ordinary servicemembers in the silos, submarines, and airplanes who actually do have launch buttons. Any one of those people, at any level of the chain of command, can simply refuse their orders, legally or not. Would they? That’s a different question, and one to which we don’t actually know the answer. We know what they’ve been trained to do, and we know what they’ve said they would do, but until it actually happens, we don’t know what they actually would do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023.md?page=3)