# What would an "illegal nuclear strike order" be? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 18, 2017, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023 "2017-11-18T21:37:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 7\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023/141 "2018-01-05T15:35:09Z")
> [@UDS](#): > > Congress’s thing doesn’t have to be, e.g., an affirmative resolution of the House and the Senate. Congress could, for example, enact legislation requiring the President to obtain the assent of a small number of leading congressional officers, or of a majority of a small number of leading congressional officers. Or you could easily come up with other possibilities. However, this is not constitutional. In the context of the War Powers Act, there have been various similar proposals for congressional concurrence with the deployment of troops, but there’s a big problem if this consultation would require any kind of permission or agreement of certain congressional leaders. In INS v Chada, courts considered whether one house of Congress could pass a resolution that vetoed a legal order by the Attorney General to deport an individual. The Supreme Court ruled that Congress could not grant itself a “legislative veto” over Executive Branch actions outside of the context of the Presentment Clause. (That is, the House and Senate vote on an identical bill or resolution that is then transmitted to the President for his signature or veto.) Moreover, the idea that the President is required to pass military decisions by Congress before he can act is surely counter to the Commander in Chief clause. I’m generally resigned to recognizing the risks of electing an incompetent President… but I can muster a smile when I think of the aphorism, “Democracy is the concept that the people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.” ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023/142 "2018-01-05T18:47:58Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > So, does the SecDef have to confirm the order? Or can the SecDef only veto the order, or both? > > What if the SecDef is dead? I would think more of a replay of the[Saturday Night Massacre](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturday_Night_Massacre) \Approve this nuke launch \No \You’re fired. NEXT! repeat as necessary ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023/143 "2018-01-05T19:07:47Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > I know this has been discussed here in the past but [this comment](http://thehill.com/policy/defense/361033-top-nuclear-commander-i-wouldnt-carry-out-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-from) by the commander of U.S. Strategic Command confused me: > > So when this has been discussed here and elsewhere, the general conclusion is that the president (as commander in chief) has ultimate decision making power when it comes to when and how to launch America’s nuclear arsenal, regardless of whether congress has or has not declared war. So, given that, what would make such an order illegal? There are standards for when a nuclear strike can be called. When a nuclear strike CAN be called and when a nuclear strike MUST be called overlap quite a bit. You can’t call a nuclear strike because Kim Jong Un said you have a tiny peepee. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023/144 "2018-01-05T19:13:24Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > There are standards for when a nuclear strike can be called. When a nuclear strike CAN be called and when a nuclear strike MUST be called overlap quite a bit. > > You can’t call a nuclear strike because Kim Jong Un said you have a tiny peepee. There is no circumstance when a nuclear strike – or any military action, really – is required to be done in the strict sense of the word. The idea of can/must really does not apply here; it is more like a question of justified/not justified. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023/145 "2018-01-05T19:19:09Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > There are standards for when a nuclear strike can be called. When a nuclear strike CAN be called and when a nuclear strike MUST be called overlap quite a bit. > > You can’t call a nuclear strike because Kim Jong Un said you have a tiny peepee. The only time a nuclear strike MUST be ordered is if we are in a position to very shortly lose our capability of launching it. If NK launches a nuke at us, it is not going to prevent us from retaliating, even if we wait a day or a week before doing so. If Russia launches its entire arsenal at us, then we need to respond immediately, as we will not have a chance to respond for very long. So, really, if China or Russia go all out nuclear strike on us, those are really the only times when there is any overlap. Anything else is optional. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023/146 "2018-01-05T19:22:40Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > There are standards for when a nuclear strike can be called. When a nuclear strike CAN be called and when a nuclear strike MUST be called overlap quite a bit Are there? Where might these standards be found? Can you link to them? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2018, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023/147 "2018-01-05T21:00:24Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Are there? Where might these standards be found? Can you link to them? Mostly in philosophy textbooks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-illegal-nuclear-strike-order-be/802023.md?page=7)