# What would an unloving, unjust, unfair God be like? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 2, 2008, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-unloving-unjust-unfair-god-be-like/439886 "2008-03-02T22:50:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-unloving-unjust-unfair-god-be-like/439886/41 "2008-03-03T20:54:05Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > We can use our free will to guide our thoughts and deeds into better, more productive ways to live thereby avoiding many of the problems of life. But if we just feel sorry for ourselves or constantly blame someone else for our troubles we become helpless and stagnated. I think there’s a difference between recognizing that not all choices are black and white and “feeling sorry for ourselves and blaming someone else for our troubles.” Some people have difficult choices to make in life, some less so. It’s a bit of a stretch to interpret “This is a messed up situation,” with “this is someone else’s fault!” Again; what is “fair” and “just” and “right” are subjective. Justice is a concept that varies quite a bit depending on time and geography. It hardly seems just to dunk a woman underwater til her lungs burst because you’re having wet dreams about her, yet it was found a perfectly apt punishment not so very long ago. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-unloving-unjust-unfair-god-be-like/439886/42 "2008-03-03T21:50:08Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] What would be the point of life if there was no free will? [/QUOTE] The same as it is now ? We have no evidence for free will, either. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-unloving-unjust-unfair-god-be-like/439886/43 "2008-03-03T22:13:03Z")
Children would be born with cancer of birth defects. Kids would be born mentally deficient. But god would never be cruel to innocent children would he? ---
**Author:** ![woodstockbirdybird](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/woodstockbirdybird/32/7905_2.png) [@woodstockbirdybird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/woodstockbirdybird)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-unloving-unjust-unfair-god-be-like/439886/44 "2008-03-03T22:18:25Z")
[QUOTE=you with the face] He’d be the same as he is now, except there would be no such thing as cats and pizza. [/QUOTE] Oh, trust me, there would still be cats. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-unloving-unjust-unfair-god-be-like/439886/45 "2008-03-03T22:27:05Z")
Unloving, unfair, unjust. You’ve described what he’s not. Now, describe what he is. Would he create creatures he didn’t like? Probably not, except as tools to some other end. If we’re tools to some other end, then we’d probably be treated in accordance with that end, with no especial care or attention to fairness and justice towards us - but likely no particular effort to thwart such things, either. God just wouldn’t care about us, except as tools towards an end. Occasionally he might have a cruel whim and dump misfortune on people -a flood here, a volcano there, a killing spree here, a dictator there- but for the most part he’d be off doing what he’d _rather_ be doing. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-unloving-unjust-unfair-god-be-like/439886/46 "2008-03-03T22:38:18Z")
[QUOTE=begbert2] Unloving, unfair, unjust. You’ve described what he’s not. Now, describe what he is. [/quote] In order to identify properties of a thing, we must first be able to observe that thing. Do you have previously unknown proof that this thing exists? > [@](#): > > Would he create creatures he didn’t like? Probably not, except as tools to some other end. If we’re tools to some other end, then we’d probably be treated in accordance with that end, with no especial care or attention to fairness and justice towards us - but likely no particular effort to thwart such things, either. God just wouldn’t care about us, except as tools towards an end. Occasionally he might have a cruel whim and dump misfortune on people -a flood here, a volcano there, a killing spree here, a dictator there- but for the most part he’d be off doing what he’d _rather_ be doing. Yes, if “god” exists, he’s an insecure lonely kid with a magnifying glass and an anthill. Duly noted. ---
**Author:** ![ASAKMOTSD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/919ad9/32.png) [@ASAKMOTSD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASAKMOTSD)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-unloving-unjust-unfair-god-be-like/439886/47 "2008-03-03T22:51:15Z")
[Dick Cheney](http://www.chuggnutt.com/images/cheney_10ways.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-unloving-unjust-unfair-god-be-like/439886/48 "2008-03-03T23:07:05Z")
[QUOTE=Maureen] In order to identify properties of a thing, we must first be able to observe that thing. Do you have previously unknown proof that this thing exists? [/QUOTE] Yes, my toaster told me this morning, via telekinietically causing my cheerios to spell out “ooooooooo” in my cereal bowl.\* Come on. Do you _really_ think I’m arguing the pro-theistic position here? \*This is a total lie. I don’t even have a toaster, or any cheerios for that matter. I do have a cereal bowl though. [QUOTE=Maureen] Yes, if “god” exists, he’s an insecure lonely kid with a magnifying glass and an anthill. Duly noted. [/QUOTE] Or he could be a dedicated gamer playing “the sims” with one family in southern LA, and everything else in the universe is automatically generated background that he cares little or nothing about. (Incidentally, that family’s life _sucks_.) Until somebody postulates more about this “un-” god, this scenario or your scenario or many others are all possible. ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2008, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-unloving-unjust-unfair-god-be-like/439886/49 "2008-03-03T23:22:58Z")
Dude. You never said you had one of _those_ toasters. I had no idea which side you were arguing. Just answering a point that, for some odd reason, always seems to always crop up during these discussions… Why is that, anyway? Why do we automatically assume certain attributes for something of which we have no verifiable evidence? It makes my head hurt almost as much as the altruism argument. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-unloving-unjust-unfair-god-be-like/439886/50 "2008-03-04T00:11:33Z")
[QUOTE=Maureen] Dude. You never said you had one of _those_ toasters. I had no idea which side you were arguing. Just answering a point that, for some odd reason, always seems to always crop up during these discussions… Why is that, anyway? Why do we automatically assume certain attributes for something of which we have no verifiable evidence? It makes my head hurt almost as much as the altruism argument. [/QUOTE] I was actually calling into question those same assumptions, by pointing out that we were all trying to extrapolate behavior from only three properties, and negatively defined properties at that. And we assume properties because we’re playing a “what if” game. Spelled out, it’s “If an entity existed that these properties: […], what other things would we expect to be true or to happen?” It’s no more nonsensical a topic than “What would you do if you had a million dollars”, really, and it’s an excellent method for trying to prove that the posited thing _isn’t so_, via proof by contradiction. Of course, with a definition composed merely of three "non"s, you can’t really get all that far. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-unloving-unjust-unfair-god-be-like/439886/51 "2008-03-04T00:12:03Z")
[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer] Let’s see…such a deity might condemn millions of persons in future generations to an eternity of flame, tormet, and being eaten by worms because their ancestors ate and apple. He or she might also execute the entire population of the world, including newborn babies, because they were wicked, sparing only one man and his family. He might also order a loyal servant of his to sacrifice his beloved son, causing him days of stress and grief, only to say "Psych!’ at the last moment. He might send bears to maim and kill several children because they mocked his prophet’s bald head. He’d definitely be okay with sanctioning raping captive women in war. Oh, and he’d send plagues all the freaking time. Why, yes, I have misplaced my Christian faith, why do you ask? And have you seen it? It was in my pocket just a few months ago. [/QUOTE] Well, this took six posts and two and a half hours longer than I thought. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-unloving-unjust-unfair-god-be-like/439886/52 "2008-03-04T00:36:07Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Since there is no god, whether or not there is free will is an interesting debate but of no use, because we don’t know how things would turn out. With a god who knows (whether or not he pulls the strings) it all seems pointless. If you believe we have free will, but you’re wrong, maybe you are preordained to act as if we do. So it shouldn’t make a difference. If you think we don’t have free will, you still have to make decisions. So that makes no difference either. As for blame, don’t you think the characters in a novel, if conscious, could legitimately blame the author for what they are going through? [/QUOTE] I was offering a way out of feeling sorry for yourself and blaming others. Some don’t believe that’s possible while others get on with their life in a new and positive perspective. Without God we would not be having a discussion, we would not exist. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-unloving-unjust-unfair-god-be-like/439886/53 "2008-03-04T00:44:19Z")
Look at the Greek gods, multiply/divide by the amount of deities you’re talking about. Assuming by “unloving” we’re talking uncaring rather than outright hatred, I would imagine we would pretty much be left to live our lives, with whoever attracts their attention being fucked with (perhaps literally) unconcernedly with whatever interest concerns them at the time. Assuming we’re created by them or otherwise in the first place, anyway. Oh, and i’m in the “no free will” camp, too. Note that by definition I cannot blame others, since with no free will there is no true fault on my or other’s behalf. In order to blame others, we _require_ a system of free will (and individuality, of course). ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-unloving-unjust-unfair-god-be-like/439886/54 "2008-03-04T01:03:29Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] Oh, and i’m in the “no free will” camp, too. Note that by definition I cannot blame others, since with no free will there is no true fault on my or other’s behalf. In order to blame others, we _require_ a system of free will (and individuality, of course). [/QUOTE] Actually, absent free will you can still blame things. I blame the cold weather here for the ice on the roads, and the ice on the roads for my car’s poor traction, all the time. I blame gravity for drawing things toward the ground. Blame is nothing more than a recognition of causes direct and indirect. Getting pissed off at the things at fault for various events is only worthwhile if you enjoy the experience of getting pissed off. Whether you’re dealing with something with free will or not, just act to correct its behavior as best you can and carry on with life. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-unloving-unjust-unfair-god-be-like/439886/55 "2008-03-04T01:13:12Z")
[QUOTE=Malacandra] Well, this took six posts and two and a half hours longer than I thought. :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] How is \*\*Skald the Rhymer’s \*\* response illegitimate? I think it is perfectly fair to point out, in response to a question like the OP, that the scripture of one of the world’s chief religions describes a God who is downright psychopathic. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-unloving-unjust-unfair-god-be-like/439886/56 "2008-03-04T02:01:42Z")
A god that was truly dedicated to being unfair would be obligated to make some people happy, becuase if everyone was miserable, that would be fair. Thusly, one can explain away all the happiness in life. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-unloving-unjust-unfair-god-be-like/439886/57 "2008-03-04T02:04:30Z")
[QUOTE=True Blue Jack] For more on “what we have now” here is one of the better sites around: CLICK TO ENTER You may want to check out the “Cruelty and Violence” section especially. Fundies may want to skip this. There are way too many examples to continue to call the Bible “good” and same for BibleGod, at least if you have an inclination toward intellectual honesty. OTOH, the site manager links to opposing sites that make some attempt at rebuttal or minimization, and you may find some comfort there if you are committed to blessed denial and sacred intellectual hypocrisy. (Your problem, not mine, if you are.) As one example, one fellow tries to tell everybody that when a certain king’s daughter was sacrificed in fulfillment of a randomly-directed oath it was not her life but rather any chance for married life in an imposed confinement. Uh huh. * * * “Truly” Yours… [/QUOTE] I suppose that’s relevant to those who see the Bible as literal or inerrant. Lot’s of Christians do not see it that way. As Bishop Sprong puts it. > [@](#): > > The Bible is a developing narrative, portraying the developing God-consciousness in human life. It moves beyond the tribal deity of some of its earlier parts to a universalism that defines God as both Love and Justice, and even calls us to love our enemies. Aside from that the OP is not just about Christianity or the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-unloving-unjust-unfair-god-be-like/439886/58 "2008-03-04T02:19:34Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Without God we would not be having a discussion, we would not exist. [/QUOTE] According to you. There’s no reason to believe that we or the universe needs God. Either to be created, or to be maintained. Saying that we need God to exist is an empty assertion; fact free. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-unloving-unjust-unfair-god-be-like/439886/59 "2008-03-04T02:27:56Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] A thread about some serious spiritual issues would be nice. There is free will, one can choose to be bad or good, choose to be negative or positive, choose to be helpful or self-serving. Yes, there are choices, and these choices determine the quality of life. [/QUOTE] What choice did the two year old baby who was raped to death (after constant abuse) by her mother’s boyfriend make? Surely you must admit that’s a pretty sucky quality of life. What determined it in this case? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2008, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-unloving-unjust-unfair-god-be-like/439886/60 "2008-03-04T02:49:56Z")
[QUOTE=Maureen] I would point out that a “just and loving god” would provide for more than just the hope and possibility of love and justice. [/QUOTE] I agree. I think there is more than hope. > [@](#): > > The problem with the question is that it depends on concepts that are far too subjective. Everyone has a different definition for “justice and fairness,” and they usually have some selfishness and prejudice thrown in, whether they care to admit it or not (usually not). We could argue all day about whether a given scenario from the bible/torah/koran is fair and in whose eyes. When all’s said and done, someone’s going to find it unjust and wrong. That said, it isn’t difficult to find spots where Yahweh went off the deep end and wildly overreacted. The parable of Elijah and the bears mentioned earlier was a good example. Kids ripped to bits because they made fun of an old man’s beard? Really? C’mon. I get that we’re going for the whole “respect your elders” concept, but isn’t that taking it just a bit far? Specific acts attributed to God in the Bible are not relevant to the OP unless you’re talking to someone who believes the Bible should be taken literally. I don’t. Even though justice and love can be subjective we still seek a fuller understanding and a truer living of those ideals. The quest for justice us reflected in civil rights and human rights. The quest for love reflected in the desire to reach out to those in need. We obviously haven’t perfected it, but we are still trying. We aren’t stagnant. > [@](#): > > Despite **lekatt’s** protestations, if we go by what we’re told in those books there is no such thing as free will. Either god knows everything and it all works the way he wants or it doesn’t. It’s all very well to claim we have choices, but those choices aren’t always black and white, good and bad, right and wrong. Sometimes the best you can hope for is to choose the lesser of two evils and hope for the best. And I would point out that even then, it’s subjective as to what is right and wrong. I’d say we at least have the illusion of free will and we must choose. If I’m at the crossroads god may know which way I’ll turn but I don’t so I have to choose and see what lies ahead. Yes, good and bad are also subjective but as before, we still keep trying to understand more. Wouldn’t you say seeking justice is seeking good rather than bad? Same with love right? The basic lesson of many religions is the idea that we as a race , are all connected , and ultimately we need to see and live that connection. Do unto others and all that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-unloving-unjust-unfair-god-be-like/439886.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-an-unloving-unjust-unfair-god-be-like/439886.md?page=4)