[QUOTE=marshmallow]
Re: What would an unloving, unjust, unfair God be like?
Visual depiction.
[/QUOTE]
God didn’t draw that picture, and I don’t see God anywhere in it. Just man looking for a scapegoat again. God, or the devil, made me do it!
We even have new scapegoats now, genes, brain misfires, etc.
When will it stop? When the individual wants it to, and not before. When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.
What would an unloving, unjust, unfair God be like, lekatt?
Hmm. lekatt has personally experienced saying he will no longer post in the thread.
lekatt has also personally experienced continuing to post in the thread.
At what point should I expect the universe to tear itself asunder, all the underpinnings destroyed, as one personal experience contradicts another?
I mean, the only other alternatives were that **lekatt ** did not truly experience a desire to no longer post, or that he has changed his mind since then and discovered his personal experience was wrong.
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
What would an unloving, unjust, unfair God be like, lekatt?
[/QUOTE]
I truly don’t know, having never met one.
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
Hmm. lekatt has personally experienced saying he will no longer post in the thread.
lekatt has also personally experienced continuing to post in the thread.
At what point should I expect the universe to tear itself asunder, all the underpinnings destroyed, as one personal experience contradicts another?
I mean, the only other alternatives were that **lekatt ** did not truly experience a desire to no longer post, or that he has changed his mind since then and discovered his personal experience was wrong.
[/QUOTE]
Reaching a little far, don’t you think.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
I truly don’t know, having never met one.
[/QUOTE]
So use your imagination. Seriously-what would YOU think God would be like if he were a total asshole? It’s a “what if” scenario.
[QUOTE=ch4rl3s]
Some one tell me, would you as a parent, while trying to raise a well adjusted child, (we’ll assume that’s what you’re trying to do,) keep every trace of pain and suffering from them? Would you keep them from ever seeing the consequences of their actions? And never let them see the consequences of other peoples actions? Would you deny them the ability to learn that people’s actions can cause suffering?
And wouldn’t you be a wonderful parent, because that’s the way to raise a healthy, respectful, considerate… Wait a minute!!! No it’s not. That’s the way to raise a spoiled brat with no consideration for others who thinks the world owes them. That’s the way to raise someone who would cause untold suffering due to their callous actions. (oh, except, of course, a “benevolent” god would never allow those actions to cause anyone else suffering.)
Has no one ever suggested to you that suffering is necessary for growth? No human invention would ever take place, because every single one is the result of someone trying to fulfill a desire. No one would ever need compassion unless someone was suffering. No one would ever develop compassion unless someone was suffering.
[/QUOTE]
This parent analogy has already been dealt with in this thread and shown to fail.
It would entail that some people just serve as ‘props’ for some other person to learn some kind of obscure lesson.
The analogy would be allright for the existance of adversity or set-backs not for evil and suffering.
What would you call a god that used excuses like yours.
God: “Sorry I took your legs off with that landmine, boy, but I thought it would make you grow as a person.”
God: "Yes that gangrape you went through..rotten was’nt it? Guess you won’t be dressing as a floozy anymore will you? Valuable lesson don’t you think?
God: “Stop whining about how your entire family died a horrible death in that attack yesterday. John McKenzie will watch your tears on TV and learn something from it”
[QUOTE=Guinastasia]
So use your imagination. Seriously-what would YOU think God would be like if he were a total asshole? It’s a “what if” scenario.
[/QUOTE]
No, just not even a probability, God is unconditional love.
[QUOTE=ch4rl3s]
Ok, there are a lot of people claiming that there can be no just God because suffering exists. That an omnipotent God, if he exists must take responsibility for the actions of everyone else.
That, therefore, he should never have given anyone free will or the ability to think for themselves. That he should force peace and tranquility on everyone. That he should never let people see the consequences of their own, or others, actions.
Some one tell me, would you as a parent, while trying to raise a well adjusted child, (we’ll assume that’s what you’re trying to do,) keep every trace of pain and suffering from them? Would you keep them from ever seeing the consequences of their actions? And never let them see the consequences of other peoples actions? Would you deny them the ability to learn that people’s actions can cause suffering?
And wouldn’t you be a wonderful parent, because that’s the way to raise a healthy, respectful, considerate… Wait a minute!!! No it’s not. That’s the way to raise a spoiled brat with no consideration for others who thinks the world owes them. That’s the way to raise someone who would cause untold suffering due to their callous actions. (oh, except, of course, a “benevolent” god would never allow those actions to cause anyone else suffering.)
Has no one ever suggested to you that suffering is necessary for growth? No human invention would ever take place, because every single one is the result of someone trying to fulfill a desire. No one would ever need compassion unless someone was suffering. No one would ever develop compassion unless someone was suffering.
[/QUOTE]
I think you have it. Unfortunately, we can only learn by comparison, so we must be able to experience the desirable and the undesirable along the road to self-discovery. Many don’t know what they are doing here in the physical. Natural disasters, as well as man-made disasters make people pay attention to the important things of life, challenging them to use their inner resources which will lead to self-discovery. God does not interfer with this process, He knows His children are all safe and sound within His love.
[QUOTE=lekatt]
Reaching a little far, don’t you think.
[/QUOTE]
Not really. I mean, I get what you’re saying - but that doesn’t mean i’m not right. You’ve had two personal experiences which contradict each other. You can’t claim personal experience as surefire proof.
I mean, i’m assuming that when you said you weren’t coming back to post you truly meant it. Something later changed your mind, apparently. And hence, personal experience changed.
Actually, out of interest - what was it that changed your mind?
[QUOTE=lekatt]
No, just not even a probability, God is unconditional love.
[/QUOTE]
Well then, if you have nothing to say about the topic at hand, you won’t be posting in this thread again, right?
[QUOTE=ch4rl3s]
Ok, there are a lot of people claiming that there can be no just God because suffering exists. That an omnipotent God, if he exists must take responsibility for the actions of everyone else.
That, therefore, he should never have given anyone free will or the ability to think for themselves. That he should force peace and tranquility on everyone. That he should never let people see the consequences of their own, or others, actions.
Some one tell me, would you as a parent, while trying to raise a well adjusted child, (we’ll assume that’s what you’re trying to do,) keep every trace of pain and suffering from them? Would you keep them from ever seeing the consequences of their actions? And never let them see the consequences of other peoples actions? Would you deny them the ability to learn that people’s actions can cause suffering?
And wouldn’t you be a wonderful parent, because that’s the way to raise a healthy, respectful, considerate… Wait a minute!!! No it’s not. That’s the way to raise a spoiled brat with no consideration for others who thinks the world owes them. That’s the way to raise someone who would cause untold suffering due to their callous actions. (oh, except, of course, a “benevolent” god would never allow those actions to cause anyone else suffering.)
[/quote]
As has been pointed out, parents must take care in raising their children because the world is a perilous place, and children must learn the dangers and how to protect themselves. But who made this dangerous world? God made humans depraved, and God made the natural world dangerous. Ergo, either (a) God is an asshole or (b) God is impotent or (c) God doesn’t exist. Take your pick.
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
Not really. I mean, I get what you’re saying - but that doesn’t mean i’m not right. You’ve had two personal experiences which contradict each other. You can’t claim personal experience as surefire proof.
I mean, i’m assuming that when you said you weren’t coming back to post you truly meant it. Something later changed your mind, apparently. And hence, personal experience changed.
Actually, out of interest - what was it that changed your mind?
[/QUOTE]
Maybe this diversion deserves its own thread?
[QUOTE=ch4rl3s]
Ok, there are a lot of people claiming that there can be no just God because suffering exists. That an omnipotent God, if he exists must take responsibility for the actions of everyone else.
That, therefore, he should never have given anyone free will or the ability to think for themselves. That he should force peace and tranquility on everyone. That he should never let people see the consequences of their own, or others, actions.
[/quote]
Alas, I don’t think you’ve been reading this thread fully. Some people have suggested rather that while free will may perhaps require suffering to happen, God still takes on the responsibility of natural disasters, which are not affected by us. Since God is omnipotent, and no-one else has control over hurricanes, earthquakes and the like, it would seem reasonable for him to take responsibility for those things, should he exist.
But it isn’t necessary for growth. God’s omnipotent. He can gift us compassion without making us suffer.
That’s the problem with the “wonderful parent” analogy; we mere mortals must work with what we have. But an omnipotent being doesn’t require that a child suffer so that it may learn - it can gift that knowledge for free. And without impacting free will, at that. If I were an omnipotent being, capable of instilling whatever knowledge or abilities I felt were required on my kids, yet decided to let them learn it the hard way rather than click my fingers and grant it - I think I might just take responsibility for that, too.
[QUOTE=Czarcasm]
Maybe this diversion deserves its own thread?
[/QUOTE]
Yeah, i’m hijacking, I apologise. lekatt, feel free to ignore my last post. Sorry all.
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
Yeah, i’m hijacking, I apologise. lekatt, feel free to ignore my last post. Sorry all.
[/QUOTE]
You know, you might want to consider starting a new thread continuing this conversation, maybe titled “God as parent”. What’s been said so far sounds pretty interesting.
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold]
That’s the problem with the “wonderful parent” analogy; we mere mortals must work with what we have. But an omnipotent being doesn’t require that a child suffer so that it may learn - it can gift that knowledge for free. And without impacting free will, at that. If I were an omnipotent being, capable of instilling whatever knowledge or abilities I felt were required on my kids, yet decided to let them learn it the hard way rather than click my fingers and grant it - I think I might just take responsibility for that, too.
[/QUOTE]
Does that assume that we are separate from God and the decisions about whether we learn instantly or learn threw experience is all God’s?
I think the God as parent thread sounds interesting.
[QUOTE=ch4rl3s]
Ok, there are a lot of people claiming that there can be no just God because suffering exists. That an omnipotent God, if he exists must take responsibility for the actions of everyone else.
That, therefore, he should never have given anyone free will or the ability to think for themselves. That he should force peace and tranquility on everyone. That he should never let people see the consequences of their own, or others, actions.
Some one tell me, would you as a parent, while trying to raise a well adjusted child, (we’ll assume that’s what you’re trying to do,) keep every trace of pain and suffering from them? Would you keep them from ever seeing the consequences of their actions? And never let them see the consequences of other peoples actions? Would you deny them the ability to learn that people’s actions can cause suffering?
[/QUOTE]
Out of common courtesy, you might try reading and understanding this thread before you post.
No one has said that no suffering is possible. But , what would think of a parent who drowned some of his kids? Caused great pain which wasn’t necessary? Do you think a parent who locks a kid in a closet and starves him is just? Those parents are monsters - and so is your God, if he existed.
[QUOTE=Latro]
This parent analogy has already been dealt with in this thread and shown to fail.
It would entail that some people just serve as ‘props’ for some other person to learn some kind of obscure lesson.
The analogy would be allright for the existance of adversity or set-backs not for evil and suffering.
What would you call a god that used excuses like yours.
God: “Sorry I took your legs off with that landmine, boy, but I thought it would make you grow as a person.”
God: "Yes that gangrape you went through..rotten was’nt it? Guess you won’t be dressing as a floozy anymore will you? Valuable lesson don’t you think?
God: “Stop whining about how your entire family died a horrible death in that attack yesterday. John McKenzie will watch your tears on TV and learn something from it”
[/QUOTE]
What’s been shown is that it’s very hard to discuss the topic without it appearing that human suffering is being minimized to support belief.
That’s not the case , but it always seem to come round to that.
[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
What’s been shown is that it’s very hard to discuss the topic without it appearing that human suffering is being minimized to support belief.
That’s not the case , but it always seem to come round to that.
[/QUOTE]
Minimized? Justified is more like it. Once the non-human-explainable suffering is pointed out, we get either the god’s plan argument, the “it isn’t really suffering or isn’t significant” argument or the “that’s a good question” response.
