What would an unloving, unjust, unfair God be like?

Great Debates
141

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
God belief does prompt the question of why are we here and why is the world as it is? If we aren’t able to answer these questions completely that doesn’t change our need to address the world as we find it.
Lot’s of spiritual beliefs teach that the trials of this life forge us into better beings. IMO it’s not hard to see that many of our problems are created by our own bad choices. The process of making those choices and dealing with the consequences is the fire that forges us.
[/QUOTE]

Sounds to me like your god has pretty much fixed the game in advance. Either we’re all part of some divine plan, and this god WANTS us to mess up to make sure we do the wrong thing (please see Anomolous Reading’s earlier reference to god changing Pharoah’s mind for him a few times to make it come out the way he wants), or our being “evil” and/or making the wrong choices (which, as I’ve pointed out, aren’t always easily seen, except in retrospect) is all free will and we damn ourselves that way. Because after all, if we don’t prove ourselves worthy, what good are we? Thanks, but really…no thanks.

142

[QUOTE=Maureen]
Sounds to me like your god has pretty much fixed the game in advance. Either we’re all part of some divine plan, and this god WANTS us to mess up to make sure we do the wrong thing (please see Anomolous Reading’s earlier reference to god changing Pharoah’s mind for him a few times to make it come out the way he wants), or our being “evil” and/or making the wrong choices (which, as I’ve pointed out, aren’t always easily seen, except in retrospect) is all free will and we damn ourselves that way. Because after all, if we don’t prove ourselves worthy, what good are we? Thanks, but really…no thanks.
[/QUOTE]

I’m familiar with the OT reference. Doesn’t mean a thing to me since I don’t take the Bible literally.

It’s not about being worthy. As part of creation we are already worthy. Two new borns, one to a rich family, one is squalor. Neither is more worthy than the other. It’s about growth. Each will have a unique set of experiences to live through and choices to make. Both have equal potential for growth.
I figure the process and experience of growth is the purpose to some extent. Why are we in a situation where we have to struggle and sometimes suffer in order to learn and grow? I don’t know. Whether we believe in God or not, what are the alternatives to striving to grow and make things better for ourselves and future generations?

I’m not trying to preach, just sharing sharing some thoughts.

143

[QUOTE=Sophistry and Illusion]
Every time I think you have dumped the biggest conceivable load of shit in this forum, you back up the truck and deliver an even larger one. Do you think burn victims don’t suffer? Visit a fucking burn ward, buddy. Do you think people with river blindness don’t suffer? That probably explains why they kill themselves rather than continue living with the disease. You can’t rearrange the facts to fit with your fucked up theology. The facts are what they are. People suffer horribly, brutally, intolerably. The baby Jesus doesn’t fly down from Heaven and take their soul from their body to rescue them.
[/QUOTE]

We are talking about two different things.

144

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
…Aside from that the OP is not just about Christianity or the Bible.
[/QUOTE]

Point taken. I’m thinking about starting a new thread about the countless ways that the Bible shows itself to be other than a “Good Book,” and how the usual evasions by Bible Maximalists don’t hold any water.

(This space for rent. :slight_smile: )

145

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Why? If death is just going through another door then it wouldn’t be.

I don’t think the question is death but what we might see as unnecessary suffering.

[/quote]

I think drowning counts as suffering, don’t you? If you neglect that, and consider death as just a door, you have no reason to say that torturing to death is wrong. If God does it, it must be ok.

No one is trying to call humans perfect or saying we should worship ourselves. Plenty of humans are dicks, so no problem there.

146

[QUOTE=lekatt]
We are talking about two different things.
[/QUOTE]

So what are you talking about? If there is no intelligence behind the world, there is no problem. If there is some sort of God responsible for the world, then this god is responsible for the natural evils.

147

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
I’m familiar with the OT reference. Doesn’t mean a thing to me since I don’t take the Bible literally.
[/quote]

While I understand what you’re saying, I was hoping for a bit more of an explanation. It seems a bit of a copout to say “well, I don’t believe that book, so really doesn’t matter.” There are plenty who do, and expect others to live by the same arbitrary rules because of that belief. I’m not accusing, more asking for clarification. It’s a complete and utter contradiction in terms.

And, I think it’s possible to do that without making that struggle about god. It’s fairly obvious that every species struggles. I don’t think it’s necessary to say “you’re being punished for screwing up. You should’ve decided better.” That can be fairly obvious or not at all applicable. Sometimes the only choice is one between two equally sucky alternatives, and them’s the breaks. Most people don’t have a problem with that until you involve a just and loving god who should’ve protected them better. That’s when it seems to become someone else’s fault…

148

[QUOTE=Voyager]
I think drowning counts as suffering, don’t you? If you neglect that, and consider death as just a door, you have no reason to say that torturing to death is wrong. If God does it, it must be ok.
[/QUOTE]

Of course I have a reason. I’m in charge of the choices I make and how they affect my life and the lives of those around me. To do the best I can with the moment at hand with whatever tools I have. If a doctor has to amputate to save the life of someone I don’t think “Well since it’s okay for the doctor to make that call then it’s okay for me.” I might assist the doctor if asked to and I thought I could make a contribution.

Okay, but it seems to me if we’re going to use the problem of evil and suffering to negate god belief as somewhat goofy then we must be willing to look at ourselves critically.

Do we have the tools to relieve a lot of the suffering in our fellow humans? Yep Could we do a lot more toward that end than we are doing? Likely. Why don’t we? Good question?

Perhaps in pursuing that answer we’ll see the higher purpose that is hard to see from our limited vantage point.

Whether it’s through spiritual beliefs or not, what are the alternatives? We accept the state our world is in now but we also strive to understand more and make things better don’t we? It is in the process and experience of those efforts that we discover more about ourselves.

149

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Don’t you need some contrast to know? How could you choose if there was only one movie or one kind of food. It wouldn’t be good or bad.
[/QUOTE]
Take a small baby, first born, that has never tasted anything. Try and feed it feces. See if it likes the taste. Having never tasted anything else, it should like it all equally, right?

Heck, by your logic, you shouldn’t be able to get a firstborn to cry by spanking it. Since it wouldn’t know that pain hurt if you didn’t cuddle it first.

If a person were inundated with something, they would get used to it, probably, and adapt (as in, change themselves) so as not to react negatively to it anymore. But that doesn’t mean that you have to suffer to enjoy things. That’s nonsense.

And all lekatt is doing here is the standard trivialization of other people’s pain. It’s a pretty vile approach, really, which denies that our experiences matter. I don’t think you see it much from people who are actually suffering; just from the ivory-tower types.

From a logical perspective, it’s a fine position if we were unreal, transient, or unimportant beings, like video game characters. Then we could suffer and nobody would care. However this position is entirely incompatible with a position where we are real, lasting, beloved spirits that are shaped by our experiences. If you believe that, this line of argument is complete garbage.

150

[QUOTE=Maureen]
While I understand what you’re saying, I was hoping for a bit more of an explanation. It seems a bit of a copout to say “well, I don’t believe that book, so really doesn’t matter.” There are plenty who do, and expect others to live by the same arbitrary rules because of that belief. I’m not accusing, more asking for clarification. It’s a complete and utter contradiction in terms.
[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure what kind of clarification or explanation you want. I can’t defend beliefs I don’t hold.

I agree with the Bishop Sprong quote about the Bible

I don’t believe any writing is “The Word of God” but rather a reflection of our ongoing desire to understand our relationship to each other and our purpose, {assuming we have one} IMO it’s unfortunate that people need to place certain writings on such a pedestal and worse that they surrender their thought process to others. Still, that seems to be an unavoidable part of the human experience. People embrace tradition and dogma and we have to try and shake it loose.

I do to. I don’t agree with those who seem to think god and Jesus or Allah have egos that require us to acknowledge them or they’ll be pissed. I think they interpret teachings incorrectly to get there.

I honestly don’t understand the part I highlighted. Can you elaborate?

151

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
. I can’t defend beliefs I don’t hold.

I don’t believe any writing is “The Word of God”

I don’t agree with those who seem to think god and Jesus or Allah have egos that require us to acknowledge them or they’ll be pissed. I think they interpret teachings incorrectly to get there.
[/QUOTE]

Okay, before we go any further, I’d like to take a step back. I think we may be talking past each other and I think the above may highlight why.

You don’t believe in traditional religious views or the traditional definition of “god.” Can you briefly outline your beliefs? Otherwise, you’re just knocking down my points by saying “well, I don’t believe that.” That really doesn’t refute anything I’m saying or clarify anything you’re saying.

I am arguing against some traditionally held views that are still being used to define “god” and “religion.” Not against personal responsibility. Far from it; I’m all for it and think there’s a need for more of it. However, I would assert that sometimes, things just happen, and you can’t point your finger and say “it’s your own fault that happened.” You can’t always lay the blame at someone’s feet.

152

[QUOTE=cosmosdan]
Of course I have a reason. I’m in charge of the choices I make and how they affect my life and the lives of those around me. To do the best I can with the moment at hand with whatever tools I have. If a doctor has to amputate to save the life of someone I don’t think “Well since it’s okay for the doctor to make that call then it’s okay for me.” I might assist the doctor if asked to and I thought I could make a contribution.

[/quote]

If amputation had no impact, then it would be okay for you. People suffering for a good cause is different from not suffering at all. I fail to see the good cause for natural evil.

I agree that natural evil has little to say about god belief - only about the existence of an omnibenevolent or even a “good” god. The existence of an evil god would be consistent with the present state of the world.

The “higher purpose” argument is the standard one - but anyone using it must explain why every single baby had to die, how the higher purpose would not be served with less loss of life.

If you are saying that our actions should be the same with or without a god, then I agree. In fact I contend that things would be better without god belief, because the investigation would be done without the supposition of a god. We can make things better without a god. We can study things that you would call spiritual without a god. We can, and have, study ourselves without a god. What does god belief do except prewire answers to these questions?

153

[QUOTE=Voyager]
So what are you talking about? If there is no intelligence behind the world, there is no problem. If there is some sort of God responsible for the world, then this god is responsible for the natural evils.
[/QUOTE]

Blame God, blame the devil, blame your boss, spouse, teacher, friends, eyc.,etc. but never, ever blame the one who makes the choices, yourself.

154

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Blame God, blame the devil, blame your boss, spouse, teacher, friends, eyc.,etc. but never, ever blame the one who makes the choices, yourself.
[/QUOTE]

Or recognize that sometimes there is no one to blame, accept it, deal with it and move on. Holy crap, why do you religious folks always go looking for someone to blame? Why is it always about fault? Sometimes shit just happens, and it’s a horrible shame. That said: if you are going to say that everything is in God’s plan, and everything happens for a reason, then YOU are saying God’s to blame. You can’t say he’s responsible for everything good that happens, but only people are responsible for the bad things that happen.

155

[QUOTE=begbert2]
Take a small baby, first born, that has never tasted anything. Try and feed it feces. See if it likes the taste. Having never tasted anything else, it should like it all equally, right?

Heck, by your logic, you shouldn’t be able to get a firstborn to cry by spanking it. Since it wouldn’t know that pain hurt if you didn’t cuddle it first.

If a person were inundated with something, they would get used to it, probably, and adapt (as in, change themselves) so as not to react negatively to it anymore. But that doesn’t mean that you have to suffer to enjoy things. That’s nonsense.

And all lekatt is doing here is the standard trivialization of other people’s pain. It’s a pretty vile approach, really, which denies that our experiences matter. I don’t think you see it much from people who are actually suffering; just from the ivory-tower types.

From a logical perspective, it’s a fine position if we were unreal, transient, or unimportant beings, like video game characters. Then we could suffer and nobody would care. However this position is entirely incompatible with a position where we are real, lasting, beloved spirits that are shaped by our experiences. If you believe that, this line of argument is complete garbage.
[/QUOTE]

We are unreal, and transient, as human beings (bodies), but very important.

I believe that will become apparent in the not to distant future.

We are living in the real age of enlightenment.

156

[QUOTE=begbert2]
Take a small baby, first born, that has never tasted anything. Try and feed it feces. See if it likes the taste. Having never tasted anything else, it should like it all equally, right?

Heck, by your logic, you shouldn’t be able to get a firstborn to cry by spanking it. Since it wouldn’t know that pain hurt if you didn’t cuddle it first.

If a person were inundated with something, they would get used to it, probably, and adapt (as in, change themselves) so as not to react negatively to it anymore. But that doesn’t mean that you have to suffer to enjoy things. That’s nonsense.
[/QUOTE]
You’ve taken my point to an extreme I never intended. I never claimed you had to suffer to enjoy things.

If you have a burger every day for lunch it’s probably because you like them and they taste good to you. If you have one after several days of going hungry there’s a good chance of it tasting a lot better. Same burger.

I’m talking about the spectrum rather than only two choices.
You might not need to eat garbage to know something taste good but if scraps from the dumpster kept you alive you might look at them differently. OOO a half eaten sandwich. What a score.

It is easy to speculate and intellectualize about the nature of suffering and why it happens and that can seem pretty callous. If you bring them up on a discussion board in an attempt to show that god isn’t just or loving do you think it’s fair to then find fault someone for attempting to answer? I can’t speak for lekatt but for myself it’s certainly not that those experiences don’t really matter. It’s about what we do with those experiences. Those that suffer and those around them being the collective we.

I’m not sure what line of argument you’re talking about.

157

[QUOTE=lekatt]
We are talking about two different things.
[/QUOTE]

No, we are talking about the same thing: painful death. You are just making your usual attempts at evasion.

158

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Blame God, blame the devil, blame your boss, spouse, teacher, friends, eyc.,etc. but never, ever blame the one who makes the choices, yourself.
[/QUOTE]

The same bullshit all over again. Remind me how a baby who dies of a strangulated hernia, or a child who dies of leukemia, deserves to die because of the choices they have made? Seriously: I want you to argue that these cases of painful death are the result of the choices these people made, and they are themselves to blame.

159

[QUOTE=lekatt]
Blame God, blame the devil, blame your boss, spouse, teacher, friends, eyc.,etc. but never, ever blame the one who makes the choices, yourself.
[/QUOTE]

And this has relevance to babies getting drowned how?

If I lost my house because I was an idiot and borrowed too much on it to buy expensive cars and vacations, yes it is my fault. If I lose my house because it is hit by a big meteorite, I don’t think I can blame myself. As an atheist I can say, “that was crappy luck” and go to check my insurance. If I was a believer in a god who cared, I’d have to wonder why he particularly hated me.

Now, try again and try to actually respond this time.

160

[QUOTE=Voyager]
Now, try again and try to actually respond this time.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, right. You’d think we’d learn, eventually. But a **lekatt ** post is like a waving red cape; I can’t help but charge.