# What would be the Achilles heel of religion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 10, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092 "2011-01-10T14:32:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![automagic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@automagic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/automagic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/1 "2011-01-10T14:32:26Z")
Every scientific theory is only one piece of evidence away from being disproved. For example, if a mammalian fossil were to be conclusively dated to being hundreds of millions of years old or if a hominid fossil were to be found to be in the same strata as an ancient dinosaur it would throw evolution on its head. So far all the evidence points to the current theory of evolution to be true. What would be the one piece of evidence that would show that the belief in a PERSONAL GOD (a god that created humans in his own image, cares about the individual, humans are the most important thing in the universe etc) can not possibly be true? Here are some I thought of: 1. The size of the universe. The universe is so immensely large that it can not have been created solely for our benefit. In fact we can not even see most of the universe since only the visible part is visible to us. 2. The fact that praying is pointless. If someone prays for something god can not immediately grant it because then we would have millions of daily lottery winners. Obviously he would have to think about it and make a decision on whether to grant your prayer. But god also has a plan for humanity. There is a chance that what you want is not part of gods plan. In that case your prayer will not be answered because its not part of his plan. So if he is going to follow his plan no matter what then what is the point of praying. 3. An all powerful god is a contradiction. There is an old question, can god microwave a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it? Obviously there is no answer to this question because once you yes to one part the other part has to be no. This works for stones so heavy he can’t lift it, light so bright he can’t look at it and etc. If anyone else has any others I would love to hear it. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/2 "2011-01-10T14:48:18Z")
Religion is not a scientific theory. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/3 "2011-01-10T14:50:20Z")
Nothing. You can’t prove a negative. The evidence points to god(s) not existing. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/4 "2011-01-10T14:51:55Z")
The old theist cop-out “God works in mysterious ways” cleanly dismisses 1 and 2, clearly he has things in mind that our little brains can’t understand. As for 3, I’ve heard Rabbis talk about how God can’t do ‘impossible things’ like make a square circle and the like, so depends on your definition of ‘omnipotent’. Christianity would be invalidated if we somehow conclusively found Jesus’s body - “And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.”. Although many Christians wouldn’t realise the significance or dismiss it instantly as a hoax. Really, anything can be spun with a religious mindset - if you’re willing to believe things on faith alone without evidence, there’s not a lot you can do to sway them. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/5 "2011-01-10T15:16:07Z")
Aliens coming to Earth in a big showy giant-mothership-hovering-over-New-York fashion and saying it’s crap. Of course, the shift will be from worshipping God to worshipping the aliens, but what can you do? ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/6 "2011-01-10T15:20:22Z")
> [@automagic](#): > > 1. An all powerful god is a contradiction. There is an old question, can god microwave a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it? Obviously there is no answer to this question because once you yes to one part the other part has to be no. This works for stones so heavy he can’t lift it, light so bright he can’t look at it and etc. There is an answer to the question; it is yes, he can microwave a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it - and then he can proceed to eat it nevertheless while gesticulating rudely at the logic he is not bound by. It’s an answer. Not a very satisfactory one - “God is not bound by logic” - but it is an answer. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/7 "2011-01-10T15:39:58Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Aliens coming to Earth in a big showy giant-mothership-hovering-over-New-York fashion and saying it’s crap. > > Of course, the shift will be from worshipping God to worshipping the aliens, but what can you do? Clearly in this case they sent by Satan to test the faith of true believers, and must be wiped out immediately. Or, more generously, the Lord has not deigned to reveal himself to them for whatever reason - he works in mysterious ways, after all. I’d make a really frustrating religious person, but it’s easy to doublethink the responses. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/8 "2011-01-10T16:21:26Z")
1. I don’t see how an unimaginably large universe causes all religion to come crashing down. It doesn’t have to have been all created for our benefit. Maybe God just likes creating things - plenty of people do. 2. Many prayers do not get answered according to the prayer’s wishes. It does not logically follow that “prayer is pointless.” 3. This is an ancient argument against the existence of God and there are various explanations that have been proposed. They may not convice you, but the argument itself is not a slam-dunk. 3a) Not sure how the existence of aliens disproves religion either. As far as I know, no religion has ruled out the possibility of extraterrestrials. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/9 "2011-01-10T16:22:54Z")
Answer to the title of the OP: All of it. Seriously. None of it makes sense if you bother to think about it for more than a few seconds. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/10 "2011-01-10T16:29:02Z")
The achillies heal of religion is spirituality, spirituality is direct contact with other beings such as God, angels, demons, dead people, etc. bypassing priests and other ‘holy’ men/women. You no longer need a set of man made rules at that point nor do you need any man made religious structure or man made certifications such as doctor of divinity. What would be the achillies heal of spirituality? Well perhaps if they ignored us, plus our god self was somehow removed (no dreams, no wishing, no intuition, no hope) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/11 "2011-01-10T16:34:29Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > The achillies heal of religion is spirituality, spirituality is direct contact with other beings such as God, angels, demons, dead people, etc. bypassing priests and other ‘holy’ men/women. You no longer need a set of man made rules at that point nor do you need any man made religious structure or man made certifications such as doctor of divinity. > > What would be the achillies heal of spirituality? Well perhaps if they ignored us, plus our god self was somehow removed (no dreams, no wishing, no intuition, no hope) Two different examples of not getting the point in the same post-very impressive. ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/12 "2011-01-10T16:46:10Z")
There’s a passage in _Inherit the Wind_ in which Brady argues that the fossil record is not a valid argument against the Bible’s account of the creation, because the fossils could have been planted there by God. (I’m going from memory, but that’s the gist.) Believers can attribute every physical discovery to being something God created, or else a trick of Satan to steer us wrong. Faith in general isn’t rational, and I find it hard to imagine any single piece of information changing that. ---
**Author:** ![SecondJudith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@SecondJudith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SecondJudith)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/13 "2011-01-10T16:56:21Z")
People would have to stop feeling drawn towards communities where they can share feelings and experiences about Important and Special things, like love and maths and sunrises and all that soppy stuff. I don’t think you can eliminate religion without eliminating the impulse that makes a lot of people who believe a lot of different things want to be part of a community like that. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/14 "2011-01-10T16:57:58Z")
If there was one in the sense the OP means, we’ve found it many times already. Science works in part because scientists learn, as part of their training, that when a hypothesis or theory is falsified it is time to find a new one. While some scientists committed to a theory will come up with more and more complex explanations for the data (think epicycles) the next generation will rejected the falsified theory. In religion the overly complex explanations are just called theology, and adherents are taught to trust in faith, so evidence just makes the more sane of the religious say stuff like the Bible is not a history book. Scientists understand what a null hypothesis is, the religious seem not to. If the aliens came, we’d just hear that our faith was being tested. If they don’t get it by now, they never will. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/15 "2011-01-10T17:00:45Z")
Somebody please explain to me why religous people should be concerned about the existence of aliens. I don’t get the problem, from a believer’s point of view. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/16 "2011-01-10T17:06:20Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Somebody please explain to me why religous people should be concerned about the existence of aliens. I don’t get the problem, from a believer’s point of view. Just my guess but I think it has to do with human exceptionalism. God created Man in his own image. If a Little Green Man shows up that puts one of Christianity’s most basic premises in question. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/17 "2011-01-10T17:12:01Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Just my guess but I think it has to do with human exceptionalism. > > God created Man in his own image. > > If a Little Green Man shows up that puts one of Christianity’s most basic premises in question. Maybe Kermit is God. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/18 "2011-01-10T17:13:46Z")
As Judaism (and I assume Christianity) believes that God has no physical form, the assumption is that “in his image” refers to the philosophical sense. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/19 "2011-01-10T17:14:26Z")
Nothing in Christianity posits that God could not have created another race of beings in his image, elsewhere in the universe. This seems like a total non-issue. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2011, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/20 "2011-01-10T17:17:16Z")
> [@automagic](#): > > What would be the one piece of evidence that would show that the belief in a PERSONAL GOD (a god that created humans in his own image, cares about the individual, humans are the most important thing in the universe etc) can not possibly be true? Sounds like you’re looking for a less-personal answer to the question posed in the current GD thread [Believers: What would it take to convince you your faith is false?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=592289) It is not a central tenet of theism, or even of Christianity, that “humans are the most important thing in the universe.” > [@](#): > > 1. The size of the universe. The universe is so immensely large that it can not have been created solely for our benefit. (A) I don’t see how this logically follows. It could have been created large for our benefit, to give us a sense of insignificance, or to let us know that there’s plenty out there left for us to discover. (B) I don’t necessarily believe, nor do I think it’s necessary to believe, that the universe **was** created for our benefit. > [@](#): > > 1. The fact that praying is pointless. If someone prays for something god can not immediately grant it because then we would have millions of daily lottery winners. Obviously he would have to think about it and make a decision on whether to grant your prayer. But god also has a plan for humanity. There is a chance that what you want is not part of gods plan. In that case your prayer will not be answered because its not part of his plan. So if he is going to follow his plan no matter what then what is the point of praying. If this argument were valid, then there would be no point in doing **anything** , not just praying. If God could give us the ability to make a difference via our actions, God could give us the ability to make a difference via our prayers. > [@](#): > > 1. An all powerful god is a contradiction. There is an old question, can god microwave a burrito so hot that he himself could not eat it? Obviously there is no answer to this question because once you yes to one part the other part has to be no. This works for stones so heavy he can’t lift it, light so bright he can’t look at it and etc. God’s omnipotence has been discussed in [another current thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13337366)—see in particular [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13337100&postcount=44), which spells out two possible approaches. I incline to the first; (quoting-from-memory C. S. Lewis) nonsense does not cease to be nonsense just because you stick the words “God can” in front of it. If you’re really interested in the implications and paradoxes involved in things like Godly omniscience, you might find [this book](http://www.amazon.com/Paradox-God-Science-Omniscience/dp/1403964572/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1294678989&sr=1-1) an interesting read. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092.md?page=2)