# What would be the Achilles heel of religion? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 10, 2011, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092 "2011-01-10T14:32:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/61 "2011-01-11T05:54:51Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > This argument is always puzzling to me. Aliens would simply be another life form, just like dogs and fish and birds, only smarter. Why couldn’t God have created them too? Their existence would be a direct challenge to the events described in _Genesis_, and challenges tend to make religion lose, since religion has no real defense other than making up new information, as you just did. Besides, I figure the aliens will have advanced technology which they got without the need for anything resembling a human religion, and “religion without nifty toys” will get beaten by “no religion, but with nifty toys” every time. I can only hope the aliens don’t bring along _their_ dopey fact-free religions. We’re fully stocked as it is. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/62 "2011-01-11T06:15:25Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Their existence would be a direct challenge to the events described in _Genesis_, and challenges tend to make religion lose, since religion has no real defense other than making up new information, as you just did. Really? I just made up new information? Would you mind spelling out just what it is about my post that is new information? I mean, I would have thought just about everybody knew about dogs, fish and birds by now. And I think it pretty much stands to reason that any life form navigating here from the far reaches of space would very likely be smarter than they are. Plus, you are aware that ‘religion’ exists outside of Christianity, do you not? Therefore, what does Genesis have to do with anything? I still submit that were alien life forms to be discovered, people who are religious would very quickly attribute their existence to having been created by God. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/63 "2011-01-11T06:40:08Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Really? I just made up new information? Would you mind spelling out just what it is about my post that is new information? The part that says “Why couldn’t God have created them too?” You’d have no evidence of this and no plausible way to _get_ evidence of this - you just expanded your already vague description of the nature of God to cover something that didn’t fit. > [@](#): > > Plus, you are aware that ‘religion’ exists outside of Christianity, do you not? Therefore, what does Genesis have to do with anything? Ahem. I didn’t even _mention_ Christianity. Genesis is not a product of Christianity. Genesis was written by people long before Christianity existed and is revered by many people today who are not Christians. Please stop assuming that “religion” and “Christianity” are synonymous, interchangeable terms. > [@](#): > > I still submit that were alien life forms to be discovered, people who are religious would very quickly attribute their existence to having been created by God. Oh, I have no doubt, but I figure such people will have far greater difficulty imparting that belief onto their children in light of this new evidence - such evidence being what I originally described, i.e. a large-scale and unmistakable visitation by technologically advanced aliens. The far more likely discovery of a few fossilized microbes on Mars isn’t what I had in mind. Anyway, you should be flattered. The conditions I’m speculating for the end of religion involving giant alien motherships isn’t some flippant dismissal but would be a colossal event about as significant as a mid-range biblical miracle, i.e. displacing religion’s glommy grip is going to need something very _very_ impressive. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/64 "2011-01-11T06:59:33Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > The part that says “Why couldn’t God have created them too?” Where did I say that? Exact quote if you please. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/65 "2011-01-11T07:30:41Z")
I’ll agree that large motherships of aliens should be enough to make people take their bibles and toss them out. It would also help if they spoke several of our languages and told us that they’ve been watching since the 14th century, but found us to be an “unfitting” species due to our crutch called religion and us insisting there’s a creator. If they just spoke, “GLAB GLAB, DADA DA DEEET TUG TUG”, or something, the thumpers would claim god sent them to us for help, since we are the greatest of HIS creations. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/66 "2011-01-11T08:14:47Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > I’ll agree that large motherships of aliens should be enough to make people take their bibles and toss them out. I don’t see why. Their existence wouldn’t disprove the idea that God created man. Who’s to say he didn’t create us here and create them there? He created dogs and fish and plankton and ferns, so why not them too? Most people who believe in God also believe he created all of the universe. This would include space-traveling aliens. I’m afraid you’re going to find it’s turtles all the way down if you’re going to try to find factual ways to counter people’s belief in God. No matter what you come up with, the belief will be that God came before it. It’s hard wired into us. Every civilization known to man has believed in God in one way or another. You’ll notice now, for example, that with increasing revelations about the role evolution has played in defining life on Earth as we now know it, some people are beginning to gravitate to the belief that “In the beginning God created evolution.” You simply can’t get ahead of the idea that God came first. So you might as well forget about the idea of finding some sort of Achilles’ heel that will discredit it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/67 "2011-01-11T10:31:33Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Where did I say that? Exact quote if you please. Post #59, which I double- and triple-checked to make sure the quote was exact and the listed author was indeed named “Starving Artist”, because I wanted to be sure I wasn’t mistaken. Now, perhaps there’s a larger context, indicated by a later post of yours that says “people who are religious would very quickly attribute their existence to having been created by God”, and you were not describing in post #59 how you would react personally, though #59 by itself gives no indication of this, but it doesn’t matter. Whether it’s you or “people who are religious”, it would still be making up new information to explain something not previously described. ---
**Author:** ![Galileo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/85e7bf/32.png) [@Galileo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Galileo)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/68 "2011-01-11T13:00:29Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > Most people who believe in God also believe he created all of the universe. Which God do those people believe in? Is God a male? What attributes does God have? How did you determine the nature of God? > [@](#): > > Every civilization known to man has believed in God in one way or another. Are all variations of “one way or another” equally valid? Do you believe in the existence of all gods of every civilization? If not, why not? If yes, please list the names of all those gods. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/69 "2011-01-11T13:44:15Z")
Well, let’s assume the most generic possible theistic religion, whose entire scripture consists of: “The creator(s) created everything.” This would indeed cover aliens, but I don’t know of any human religion that embraces this kind of limited but all-inclusive tautology (I suppose pure deism is the closest). Rather, human religions tend to slather on descriptions of the creator(s)’ origins, attitudes, desires, motivations, etc. and include descriptions of human action that will please or displease said creator(s). Anyway, along come the aliens who are clearly a successful species in light of their advanced technology and yet have no slathered-on belief systems that resemble a human religion. Yes, I’m prepared to say that this would greatly undermine human religion, in part by making it inescapably obvious that they aren’t really needed. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/70 "2011-01-11T14:40:04Z")
Actually, on even further reflection, the real Achilles heel of any particular religion is encounters with neighbors (and in this information age, the characters we watch on TV arguably count as such) who look significantly more successful and happy and don’t share that religion. That’s what causes children to discard their parents’ faith, I figure, because they realize the religion is not only unnecessary for happiness, it may even be impeding it. And a large number of tech-advanced aliens who have no human religion and yet seem pretty on the ball… why, they’d be the ultimate neighbors! ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/71 "2011-01-11T15:31:04Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > In other words, _far less than the general population_. If anything you are proving my point. > > You are also ignoring the fact that I didn’t say that scientists are hostile to religion; I said that science is. And that religion is hostile to science; the fact that these scientists are religious tends to make them worse at their jobs. They have to avoid questions and disciplines that touch on their religion, otherwise the fundamental falsehood and illogic of their religion will be rubbed in their faces… > And she may have used the words “elite scientists”, but that’s nonsense; atheism increases the higher up you go the ladder of scientific research. You said “You aren’t going to find a significant number of top scientists (since religion is a scientific handicap) or biologists who are theists.” I provided you with a study showing that 50% of “elite scientists” identify themselves as religious, while only around 30% consider themself atheist and only 5% are hostile to religion. So what if that’s less than the general population? That wasn’t your claim. In fact, you’ve done nothing but make assertions, and not only are you not providing facts, you aren’t even providing _arguments_. You say “they have to avoid questions and disciplines that touch on their religion otherwise the fundamental falsehood and illogic of their religion will be rubbed in their faces.” Please _at least_ give an example of a scientific question or discipline that conflicts with religion. Hint: Creationism is not a religion. > [@Der Trihs](#): > > Again; you aren’t likely to find a theist biologist. Off the top of my head I can think of [Francis Collins](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Collins_(geneticist)), the geneticist who heads the NIH, and [Kenneth Miller](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_R._Miller), a biology professor at Brown University who has written about evolution and Roman Catholic belief and how they are completely compatable. Given a few minutes of Googling I could probably come up with more. **DT** , you don’t know what you’re talking about. > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Their existence would be a direct challenge to the events described in _Genesis_, and challenges tend to make religion lose, since religion has no real defense other than making up new information, as you just did. Saying “God created the aliens” is not “making up new information” since it’s a pretty basic precept of most theistic religions that God created Everything. It doesn’t even directly contradict Creationism, because God could have created life on another planet like he did on earth. But again, creationism must not be confused with religion. Most mainstream religions and denominations accept evolution without qualms. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/72 "2011-01-11T16:05:46Z")
G.K. Chesterton thought of all this a century ago. In the story, “the Blue Cross,” Father Brown is asked to consider that there may be other planets in distant universes where his beliefs would be inapplicable." Brown’s reply: "You can imagine any mad botany or geology you please. Think of forests of adamant with leaves of brilliants. Think the moon is a blue moon, a single elephantine sapphire. But don’t fancy all that frantic astronomy would make the smallest difference to the reason and justice of conduct. On plains of opal, under cliffs cut out of pearl, you would still find a notice-board: “Thou shall not steal.” ---
**Author:** ![jinty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/dbc845/32.png) [@jinty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jinty)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/73 "2011-01-11T18:06:33Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > This argument is always puzzling to me. Aliens would simply be another life form, just like dogs and fish and birds, only smarter. Humans are just another life form, only smarter. Why would god make himself known to only one particular smart life form? > [@](#): > > Why couldn’t God have created them too? He could have, of course. If they turn up on earth and say “Take us to Jerusalem, we wish to worship at the most holy place”, then that’d be a big feather in religion’s cap. If, on the other hand, they turn up and say “Yahweh? Never heard of him,” then might you wonder why Yahweh hadn’t bothered to make himself known to them? Was he too busy? He wasn’t too busy to create them. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/74 "2011-01-11T18:33:37Z")
> [@jinty](#): > > If they turn up on earth and say “Take us to Jerusalem, we wish to worship at the most holy place”, then that’d be a big feather in religion’s cap. I’d expect to be more like “We don’t know from Yahweh, but we recognize a being we call _Ioces_ who created the universe and everything in it, and he has spoken to us through prophets, and we believe he wants us to love him and love each other.” That’s something we would recognize, and doesn’t require them to be wearing crosses around their neck or to pray toward Mecca. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/75 "2011-01-11T19:19:41Z")
So what’s their trinity, an Ioceseles triangle? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/76 "2011-01-11T19:29:56Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > I’d expect to be more like “We don’t know from Yahweh, but we recognize a being we call _Ioces_ who created the universe and everything in it, and he has spoken to us through prophets, and we believe he wants us to love him and love each other.” That’s something we would recognize, and doesn’t require them to be wearing crosses around their neck or to pray toward Mecca. Not “Ioces loves us and has given us dominion over all the lesser creatures in the universe. Now, in _your_ language you would call this device a “cattle prod”…”? ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/77 "2011-01-11T19:35:59Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So what’s their trinity, an Ioceseles triangle? I just needed a made up name and grabbed some letters from a longer word that was in front of me. Maybe they call their god Herb. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/78 "2011-01-11T19:40:02Z")
How about the aliens show up and not only do they believe there is a Creator, they have scientific proof of it and have built machines that let them contact the creator of the universe and chat with him on a regular basis. But the Creator in question doesn’t resemble the Christan God and personally confirms that it had nothing to do with any earthly religions and in fact didn’t even know of Earth’s existence until the aliens told it about us. EDIT: For extra fun, they give us some of their machines so we can talk to the creator of the universe whenever we like. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/79 "2011-01-11T19:47:57Z")
Yeah, how about that? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2011, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092/80 "2011-01-11T20:26:20Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > How about the aliens show up and not only do they believe there is a Creator, they have scientific proof of it and have built machines that let them contact the creator of the universe and chat with him on a regular basis. Hmph, what’s the point staying up all night debating is there is a God if somebody shows up with his bleedin’ phone number? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-achilles-heel-of-religion/567092.md?page=5)