# What would be the best way to expel illegals and start over with legal immigration? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 9, 2006, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926 "2006-04-09T05:12:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2006, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/21 "2006-04-09T23:04:24Z")
> [@jimmmy](#): > > You ned a Constitutional Amendment to change the 14th Amendment defines citizenship this way: “All persons \*\*born \*\* or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.” > Maybe you realize this – just saying. Actually, there is a debate about this. Some people believe that the amendmend has been interpreted incorrectly. The discussion revolves around the fact that there are two conditions, as is indicated by the word “and”. There was a thread on this where I went back and cited the debates in congress when it was proposed. Check out posts #35 and 99 from [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=339160&page=2&pp=50&highlight=subject+jurisdiction+thereof). Here is an excerpt from post #99: > [@](#): > > So, the debate is: is there one or are there two criteria for citizenship at birth? Is it enough that persons be “born or naturalized in the US”? Or do they also have to be “subject to the jurisdiction thereof”, as well? > > The 14th Amendment was proposed to ensure that Black Americans, who had just been emancipated, would be guaranteed citizenship by the states. Upon its introduction in 1866, Michigan Senator Jacob Howard spelled out the intent of his proposed amendment: > > “This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the Government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.” > > The proposal even excluded Native Americans, whose citizenship rights were handled in a later bill. > > More and more politicians are taking up this issue. I think this will be the first part of the immigration problem to be solved, because compared to the others —deporting ilegals, locking down the borders, and hiring enough agents to go after the employers—it can be done with relative ease. A few simple votes and it’s done. I realize that hyperbole in that statement, but I mean it in only in comparison of the other steps the need to be taken. Post #35 has links to a current bill and more. [Here is a link](http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.R.698:) that goes to the bill (H. R. 698). I don’t know if there has been any activity in the past six months since the posting. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2006, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/22 "2006-04-09T23:50:46Z")
Mandatory registration and a work visa program so businesses will know whether they are hiring illegal aliens. Failure to register would be a felony that immediately deports on the first offence with a 1 year entry ban. 2nd offence would be 6 months of hard labor working on a border wall and 2 year entry ban. 3rd offense is the same as the 2nd offense but would include a total ban on rentry. The mix could be argued over but the goal should be 100% identification and control of the borders. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/23 "2006-04-10T00:37:15Z")
Hmmm…Bounty Hunters are a rather cost-efficient solution. Increase sanctions on employers, & set up a reward fund for capturing “coyotes”–smugglers of illegals from Mexico. I suspect good results, fast. I’d also suggest a reward for capturing illegals, but later, and with strong restrictions, to prevent innocent people from being abused. Also, no more bilingual services & signs. We should be encouraging immigrants to _join_ our culture, not be a separate group within it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/24 "2006-04-10T01:44:02Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > Also, no more bilingual services & signs. > > We should be encouraging immigrants to _join_ our culture, not be a separate group within it. This is an important pointthat is often overlooked. Not only does it make it easier for people to not assimilate, we actually pay for the extra language literature (DMV, etc.). Talk about a lose - lose proposition. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/25 "2006-04-10T01:45:07Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > The mix could be argued over but the goal should be 100% identification and control of the borders. Absolutely. Any plan that does not include this is just a waste of time and money. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/26 "2006-04-10T02:19:01Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > This is an important pointthat is often overlooked. Not only does it make it easier for people to not assimilate, we actually pay for the extra language literature (DMV, etc.). Talk about a lose - lose proposition. Spanish has been spoken continuously in the affected areas since well before we got there. We are the ones that didn’t assimilate. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/27 "2006-04-10T02:49:08Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > Spanish has been spoken continuously in the affected areas since well before we got there. We are the ones that didn’t assimilate. You’re really reaching. Do you deny that English is the main language of each and every state? Also, you might this interesting. It’s from [here,](http://www.juntosociety.com/i_documents/twmexico.htm) the treaty between Mexico and the U.S. > [@](#): > > Article IX > > The Mexicans who, in the territories aforesaid, shall not preserve the character of citizens of the Mexican Republic, conformably with what is stipulated in the preceding article, shall be incorporated into the Union of the United States, and be admitted at the proper time (to be judged of by the Congress of the United States) to the enjoyment of all the rights of citizens of the United States, according to the principles of the Constitution; and in the mean time, shall be maintained and protected in the free enjoyment of their liberty and property, and secured in the free exercise of their religion without restriction. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/28 "2006-04-10T02:59:10Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You’re really reaching. Do you deny that English is the main language of each and every state? Also, you might this interesting. It’s from [here,](http://www.juntosociety.com/i_documents/twmexico.htm) the treaty between Mexico and the U.S. English is the main language numerically in most states, but hardly the only one and in many cities it is not the main native language. Spanish has a long history here and Mexican culture is one of the cultures of the area, dating back to the first roads and cities- which were full of Mexicans. It is a native language of the land, not something brought in by outsiders. As such, it’s ridiculous to accuse Mexicans of not assimilating as I walk down the streets of San Francisco in search of a good burrito- which by the way is something that’s Mexican that isn’t from Mexico. The burrito is as American as apple pie, but also Mexican. Kind of like the Spanish that is spoken here. ---
**Author:** ![Frostillicus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Frostillicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frostillicus)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/29 "2006-04-10T03:06:21Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > 1. no welfare benefits for illegal aliens What on earth makes you think that illegal aliens are currently collecting welfare checks? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![mks57](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b9bd4f/32.png) [@mks57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mks57)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/30 "2006-04-10T03:22:05Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > Spanish has a long history here and Mexican culture is one of the cultures of the area, dating back to the first roads and cities- which were full of Mexicans. It is a native language of the land, not something brought in by outsiders. I suppose Hernando Cortez was just a tourist. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/31 "2006-04-10T03:54:30Z")
> [@Bosda Di'Chi of Tricor](#): > > Hmmm…Bounty Hunters are a rather cost-efficient solution. > > **There is would be so much mistaken identity that the civil lawsuits and criminal prosecutions would nix that in a hurry.** > > Increase sanctions on employers, > > **As much as I don’t like it, that probably would work. But would there be a backlash against people hiring Hispanics just so they wouldn’t face a risk?** > > & set up a reward fund for capturing “coyotes”–smugglers of illegals from Mexico. > > **In the US or Mexico? There called polleros in Mexico BTW.** > > I suspect good results, fast. > > **I doubt it. I think that the whole bounty hunter idea and caliber of people that it would attract would phenomenal disaster.** > > I’d also suggest a reward for capturing illegals, but later, and with strong restrictions, to prevent innocent people from being abused. > > **Human rights abuses against illegal aliens and those suspected of being illegal aliens is fine?** > > Also, no more bilingual services & signs. > > **This doesn’t violate the 1st Ammendment?** > > We should be encouraging immigrants to _join_ our culture, not be a separate group within it. \*\*What is our culture exactly? It differs greatly in custom and cuisine not too mention language and dialects depending on the section of the country that your in. \*\* **My responces in bold.** ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/32 "2006-04-10T04:13:34Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You’re really reaching. Do you deny that English is the main language of each and every state? Also, you might this interesting. It’s from [here,](http://www.juntosociety.com/i_documents/twmexico.htm) the treaty between Mexico and the U.S. There are plenty of places in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California where Spanish was, has been, and is a predominate language. And not by illegal aliens. There is a growing Hispanic population that is predominantly legal that speaks a great deal of Spanish. It’s a free country. They can do so. We don’t have official discrimination anymore, and there are no gangs of bigots beating people up (yet) because they haven’t abandoned that aspect of their culture. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/33 "2006-04-10T04:17:08Z")
> [@Frostillicus](#): > > What on earth makes you think that illegal aliens are currently collecting welfare checks? 😕 One of the great many ignorances put forth by those propagandizing hatred towards Spanish speaking illegal immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/34 "2006-04-10T04:35:37Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You’re really reaching. Do you deny that English is the main language of each and every state? Also, you might this interesting. It’s from [here,](http://www.juntosociety.com/i_documents/twmexico.htm) the treaty between Mexico and the U.S. [We didn’t exactly honor our side of that treaty](http://www.pbs.org/kpbs/theborder/history/timeline/6.html). On a side note, which bizarre blog links you to these places you keep citing? [Some of the stuff](http://www.juntosociety.com/monty/mr_dw022103.html) there is a lot more funny (unintentionally) than The Onion could ever hope to be, and I like a good laugh now and again. > [@Monty "Bubba Joe Bob Bill" Rainey](#): > > As client nations go, the principle is; as go the believers, so goes the client nation (Ps. 33:10-19). Jesus Christ prospers His client nation when its believers advance in the Divine dynasphere. He disciplines the nation when believers live habitually in the cosmic system. Usually a nation will begin to decline under the weight of its own degeneracy. Such is the case we see ourselves in today. I couldn’t make that up if I tried. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/35 "2006-04-10T04:52:02Z")
> [@Unregistered Bull](#): > > There are plenty of places in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California where Spanish was, has been, and is a predominate language. And not by illegal aliens. There is a growing Hispanic population that is predominantly legal that speaks a great deal of Spanish. It’s a free country. They can do so. We don’t have official discrimination anymore, and there are no gangs of bigots beating people up (yet) because they haven’t abandoned that aspect of their culture. Yes, like where I live. (Los Angeles) Seems like there are more people speaking Spanish than English sometimes. Now, I speak Spanish. I did not grow up speaking it, but I can speak it. However, I virtually never speak it here. I will always force the person to speak English if they can at all, and only speak Spanish if I really need some information out of them and they are just completely fumbling or non-communicative. When I go to Mexico, I always address people in Spanish, and it is what I expect to speak to people with. Here, I always address people in English, and likewise it is what I expect. Is that so much to ask? (I don’t think anyone is trying to force people to abandon their native language, but if we have to go out of our way to cater to them because they won’t bother learning a lick of English, then it is a problem) ---
**Author:** ![suezeekay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@suezeekay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suezeekay)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/36 "2006-04-10T05:10:56Z")
Pass legislation to: (1) Require potential employees to have a Livescan that links to a database of individuals who are in this country legally or to present a scanable passport. Entry into the database would be part of the process when one is given legal residency and in addition it would be developed from federal records for the past 45 years. Proof of legal residency is already required in California. So there is a legal precedence for this. (2) Make it illegal to wire money to a foreign country without a Livescan proving you are a U.S. citizen or presenting a scannable U.S. passport. This would take away a large part of the 30 billion dollar incentive for the Mexican government to encourage their citizens to run the border. The Bank Secrecy Act could be modified. (3) Debit the amount it costs U.S. taxpayers to subsidize education, health care, housing, etc. for illegal Mexicans against the millions that we send in foreign aid to Mexico. The subsidies for other illegals is not that significant. Obviously this would reduce foreign aid to Mexico to zero. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/37 "2006-04-10T06:03:05Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > …which bizarre blog links you to these places you keep citing? I wanted the treaty, googled it, and voila: there it was. But here’s [another cite](http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/mexico/guadhida.htm) for the same treaty. And what do you know, the same words: (bolding mine) > [@](#): > > ARTICLE IX > > The Mexicans who, in the territories aforesaid, **shall not preserve the character of citizens of the Mexican Republic** , conformably with what is stipulated in the preceding article, shall be incorporated into the Union of the United States. and be admitted at the proper time (to be judged of by the Congress of the United States) to the enjoyment of all the rights of citizens of the United States, according to the principles of the Constitution; and in the mean time, shall be maintained and protected in the free enjoyment of their liberty and property, and secured in the free exercise of their religion without; restriction. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/38 "2006-04-10T06:15:43Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > English is the main language numerically in most states, but hardly the only one and in many cities it is not the main native language. And do you think one reason for that might be the millions of Spanish-speaking illegals here? > [@even sven](#): > > It is a native language of the land, not something brought in by outsiders. Oh really? Wow. And all these years I was taught it had something to do with Spanish conquerors coming here. Oh well… ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/39 "2006-04-10T06:23:40Z")
> [@Unregistered Bull](#): > > There are plenty of places in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California where Spanish was, has been, and is a predominate language. And not by illegal aliens. There is a growing Hispanic population that is predominantly legal that speaks a great deal of Spanish. It’s a free country. They can do so. We don’t have official discrimination anymore, and there are no gangs of bigots beating people up (yet) because they haven’t abandoned that aspect of their culture. Aside from the fact that the million of Spanish-speaking illegals contribute to this, it is not healty for the country. It slows assimilation and costs money. For the record, I am talking only about written material paid for by the government. If a private group wants to offer driver’s license manuals and other literature in Spanish, Nigerian, Greek, Russian, Thai, or whatever else, more power to them. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/40 "2006-04-10T07:24:41Z")
I don’t think there is a good way to expel all the illegal immigrants. I’m not even sure that there is a legal way. I don’t know for sure about governments but private citizens can’t sit on their rights for years and then suddenly decide to assert them. For example, suppose you own a vacant lot next to the lot your residence is on. One day a truck shows up at the vacant lot and a couple of guys dig the trenches for a foundation and put in rebars. You do nothing. After that a concrete truck shows up and pours the foundation. You do nothing. Then a load of lumber appears and the two guys build a tool shed. You do nothing. The two guys store tools in the shed and regularly come and go for 30 years with no protest from you. Do you really think that you can get them off your lot after all that time? When I was in Iowa City a woman sued the University of Iowa and the City of Iowa City to recover some land that her father had given the city for use as a partk. The city later swapped that land for some University land. The University then build some buildings on the land. The woman wanted to reclaim the land because it wasn’t being used for a park as the original gift specified. The court agreed with her that what she claimed was true but she was about 40 years too late. The US for years had openly allowed illegal immigrants to live and work here all the while doing little to interfere with the practice. Can we suddenly decide to throw them all out? Could the native Americans go into court and get a court order overturning all of the property rights that have been granted by a government, that of the US, that usurped their lands? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926.md?page=3)