# What would be the best way to expel illegals and start over with legal immigration? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 9, 2006, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926 "2006-04-09T05:12:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/41 "2006-04-10T09:00:13Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > …And what do you know, the same words: (bolding mine) > [@](#): > > ARTICLE IX > > The Mexicans who, in the territories aforesaid, **shall not preserve the character of citizens of the Mexican Republic** , conformably with what is stipulated in the preceding article, shall be incorporated into the Union of the United States. and be admitted at the proper time (to be judged of by the Congress of the United States) to the enjoyment of all the rights of citizens of the United States, according to the principles of the Constitution; and in the mean time, shall be maintained and protected in the free enjoyment of their liberty and property, and secured in the free exercise of their religion without; restriction. What exactly do you think those words mean? And moreover what do you think [ARTICLE IX](http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/mexico/guadhida.htm#art9) in general means? CMC fnord! PS, I’ve made it a habit to avoid using controversial sites for cites, even if the cite is accurate, it opens the door to too many valid criticisms. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/42 "2006-04-10T09:14:09Z")
Meant to add, > [@magellan01](#): > > … > > > [@even sven](#): > > > > It is a native language of the land, not something brought in by outsiders. > > Oh really? Wow. And all these years I was taught it had something to do with Spanish conquerors coming here. Oh well… By that logic we shouldn’t be speaking English either! ---
**Author:** ![Antonius\_Block](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Antonius\_Block](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antonius_Block)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/43 "2006-04-10T11:08:34Z")
> [@suezeekay](#): > > Make it illegal to wire money to a foreign country without a Livescan proving you are a U.S. citizen or presenting a scannable U.S. passport. I’m not a US citizen, but I **am** a legal resident. Why shouldn’t I be allowed to wire money wherever I so desire? Would you condone similar restrictions if they were placed by other countries on their resident American expatriates? ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/44 "2006-04-10T11:28:28Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I wanted the treaty, googled it, and voila: there it was. But here’s [another cite](http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/diplomacy/mexico/guadhida.htm) for the same treaty. And what do you know, the same words: (bolding mine) Me asking about the cite was simply an aside, and I’m quite aware of that treaty, as I linked to a reference to it myself. While I don’t think the treaty says what you think it does, even if it did, and was quite clear in doing so, I stand by the statement that I wouldn’t expect them to honor a treaty that we basically shit all over, as evidenced by my cite. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/45 "2006-04-10T11:35:56Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > …Could the native Americans go into court and get a court order overturning all of the property rights that have been granted by a government, that of the US, that usurped their lands? If we’re referring to specific land (say the [Black Hills](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hills#History)?) ceded to a given tribe by treaty ([Treaty](http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/ntreaty/nt001.htm)[of Fort Laramie](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Fort_Laramie_%281868%29)) with the US, YES! While I concede the insurmountable difficulties giving all of North America back would bring, honoring the treaty obligations the US voluntarily entered into should be a given, not a question. “Not all white men are [Wasi’chu](http://dickshovel.com/wasichu.html)” CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/46 "2006-04-10T14:11:44Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > If we’re referring to specific land (say the [Black Hills](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hills#History)?) ceded to a given tribe by treaty ([Treaty](http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/ntreaty/nt001.htm)[of Fort Laramie](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Fort_Laramie_%281868%29)) with the US, YES! > > While I concede the insurmountable difficulties giving all of North America back would bring, honoring the treaty obligations the US voluntarily entered into should be a given, not a question. > > “Not all white men are [Wasi’chu](http://dickshovel.com/wasichu.html)” > > CMC fnord! The site’s reference to The Black Hills War states that the in agreement that finally ended that campaign the Black Hills were ceded to the United States. That seems to have nullified the Fort Laramie Treaty. From the cite to The Black Hills War contained in your cite to the Fort Laramie Treaty: > [@](#): > > The war was finally ended with another treaty, in which the Lakota ceded a 50-mile strip along the western border of their reservation, and some additional lands,\*\* giving the US title to the Black Hills and legalizing the previously-illegal gold hunters and camp followers in Custer City, Deadwood, and other boom towns in the Black Hills.\*\* [bold added] But that’s not the point. The point is that you can’t turn back the clock and entirely undo 30 or 40, or more, years of history merely by passing a law. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/47 "2006-04-10T14:20:34Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > But that’s not the point. The point is that you can’t turn back the clock and entirely undo 30 or 40, or more, years of history merely by passing a law. I agree entirely. In fact, I’d say you can’t turn back ten years of history merely by passing a law: that’s why I say the OP’s idea is as impractical and irrelevant as La Raza’s ideas, or the ideas of folks who want to return most of the US to Native American nations. We deal with reality, not with theory; the law should, too. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/48 "2006-04-10T14:28:13Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > I agree entirely. In fact, I’d say you can’t turn back ten years of history merely by passing a law;… Sure we can. Isn’t that what Reagan Amnesty Bill did? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/49 "2006-04-10T14:35:10Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Aside from the fact that the million of Spanish-speaking illegals contribute to this, it is not healty for the country. It slows assimilation and costs money. For the record, I am talking only about written material paid for by the government. If a private group wants to offer driver’s license manuals and other literature in Spanish, Nigerian, Greek, Russian, Thai, or whatever else, more power to them. There are no particular language requirements for legal immigrants (nor native born citizens), and we produce those materials (not just in Spanish) because it helps us have a safe, educated populace. Without translators, the wheels of justice could not turn, the vote could not be as meaningful, and our country would be worse off. > [@](#): > > The Mexicans who, in the territories aforesaid, shall not preserve the character of citizens of the Mexican Republic, conformably with what is stipulated in the preceding article, shall be incorporated into the Union of the United States. and be admitted at the proper time (to be judged of by the Congress of the United States) to the enjoyment of all the rights of citizens of the United States, according to the principles of the Constitution; and in the mean time, shall be maintained and protected in the free enjoyment of their liberty and property, and secured in the free exercise of their religion without; restriction. Yeah, and I’m sure that treaty was voted on and accepted as part of a legitimate democratic process. In any case, Spanish is a characteristic of the American Republic. > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > By that logic we shouldn’t be speaking English either! Hey, I’m not the one that cares what language people speak. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/50 "2006-04-10T14:41:09Z")
> [@suezeekay](#): > > Pass legislation to: > > (3) Debit the amount it costs U.S. taxpayers to subsidize education, health care, housing, etc. for illegal Mexicans against the millions that we send in foreign aid to Mexico. That is laughable!! What foreign aid? The pittance you send is mostly for law enforcement supposedly to stop the illegal drugs that American society can’t seem to live without. > [@suezeekay](#): > > The subsidies for other illegals is not that significant. Obviously this would reduce foreign aid to Mexico to zero. According to some statistics Mexicans make up approximately half of the undocumented immigrants in the US. [Link](http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/law/lwsch/journals/bclawr/41_4/01_TXT.htm#T73) > [@](#): > > Only four in ten illegal immigrants, however, enters the United States through the Mexican border.77 \*\*Though estimates of the percentage of illegal immigrants from Mexico range from 39% to 54%,78 over 90% of illegal immigrants apprehended are Mexican.\*\*79 The decision to place higher priority on border interdiction than on locating and deporting visa overstayers further magnifies the disparate treatment of Mexican and Central American illegal immigrants. Visa overstayers make up just 16% of Mexican and 26% of Central American illegal immigrants, but they constitute 91% of the illegal population [\*PG769]from the rest of the world.80 This prioritization has only become more pronounced in recent years; since 1994, there has been a 122% increase in Border Patrol agents, and two thousand immigration inspectors have been added It appears you have some strong prejudices against Mexicans. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/51 "2006-04-10T14:48:58Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Sure we can. Isn’t that what Reagan Amnesty Bill did? As I understand, it did exactly the opposite: it recognized current reality and laid waste to the imaginary world constructed by anti-immigration forces. Maybe you’d care to clarify in what way it dealt with an imaginary world instead of reality? Daniel ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/52 "2006-04-10T14:49:02Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > According to some statistics Mexicans make up approximately half of the undocumented immigrants in the US. What is your point? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/53 "2006-04-10T14:50:33Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > In any case, Spanish is a characteristic of the American Republic. . . . Hmmm? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/54 "2006-04-10T14:53:47Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > It appears you have some strong prejudices against Mexicans. This may or may not be true. However, this thread on a particularly contentious issue has, so far, remained civil, so let’s leave the personal observations about other posters out of the thread. This goes for all the other post(er)s that have danced up to that line, as well. No one (including **CBEscapee** ) has violated any rule, here. I am simply trying to keep this thread out of the **Pit** by establishing some suggestions of behavior that will minimize tensions and bad feelings. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![suezeekay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/839c29/32.png) [@suezeekay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suezeekay)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/55 "2006-04-10T14:56:32Z")
> [@CBEscapee](#): > > That is laughable!! What foreign aid? The pittance you send is mostly for law enforcement supposedly to stop the illegal drugs that American society can’t seem to live without. > > According to some statistics Mexicans make up approximately half of the undocumented immigrants in the US. > > [Link](http://www.bc.edu/bc_org/avp/law/lwsch/journals/bclawr/41_4/01_TXT.htm#T73) > > It appears you have some strong prejudices against Mexicans. The other illegal immigrants are very diverse and do not represent a large number of any one particular country. I welcome Indians, Germans, Asians, etc. because they don’t hang around on the corners of every town across the U.S. looking for jobs, clog up our hospitals and schools, and think that because a miniscule number of them pay taxes, that they are somehow deserving of what our taxes provide. Mexicans are the real problem when it comes to illegal immigrants. Aside from Mexicans, I can’t leave out the MS-13 gang which is another delightful hispanic group that is particularily violent and is bred below the border. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/56 "2006-04-10T14:57:32Z")
> [@Frostillicus](#): > > What on earth makes you think that illegal aliens are currently collecting welfare checks? 😕 Because the family next door to my BIL is on welfare, both the mother and the father are undocumented. the children 9born in the USA) are American citizens. the family receives: -section 8 housing subsidy -welfare -foodstamps At least two of these are federal Welfare programs. that’s why I have the idea. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/57 "2006-04-10T15:01:59Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Because the family next door to my BIL is on welfare, both the mother and the father are undocumented. the children 9born in the USA) are American citizens. the family receives: > -section 8 housing subsidy > -welfare > -foodstamps > At least two of these are federal Welfare programs. that’s why I have the idea. You know they are undocumented how? If there children are US citizens, then they are eligible for welfare benefits. ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/58 "2006-04-10T15:06:02Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > What is your point? suezeekay made this statement which was quoted directly above mine: “ **The subsidies for other illegals is not that significant.** Obviously this would reduce foreign aid to Mexico to zero.” I thought it was pretty obvious that my point was she is incorrectly singleing out Mexicans regardless of the statistics on the makeup of undocumented workers in the US. Is that clear enough? ---
**Author:** ![CBEscapee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b19c9b/32.png) [@CBEscapee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CBEscapee)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/59 "2006-04-10T15:08:26Z")
> [@suezeekay](#): > > The other illegal immigrants are very diverse and do not represent a large number of any one particular country. I welcome Indians, Germans, Asians, etc. because they don’t hang around on the corners of every town across the U.S. looking for jobs, clog up our hospitals and schools, and think that because a miniscule number of them pay taxes, that they are somehow deserving of what our taxes provide. Mexicans are the real problem when it comes to illegal immigrants. Aside from Mexicans, I can’t leave out the MS-13 gang which is another delightful hispanic group that is particularily violent and is bred below the border. So you can tell from the way a person looks what nationality they are? Wanna bet? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/60 "2006-04-10T16:00:56Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > …Hey, I’m not the one that cares what language people speak. Me neither! Just to be clear the comment was in response to this, > [@magellan01](#): > > …Oh really? Wow. And all these years I was taught it had something to do with Spanish conquerors coming here. Oh well… and not directed to you. 🙂 CMC fnord! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926.md?page=4)