# What would be the best way to expel illegals and start over with legal immigration? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 9, 2006, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926 "2006-04-09T05:12:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/61 "2006-04-10T16:05:21Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Sure we can. Isn’t that what Reagan Amnesty Bill did? How did amnesty undo history? Seems to me that it merely confirmed it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/62 "2006-04-10T16:35:44Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > How did amnesty undo history? Seems to me that it merely confirmed it. Fact: We have immigration laws, which were in effect at the time. Fact: People snuck into our country and others overstayed their visas, in violation of those laws. This was supossed to result in them being deported. Fact: It didn’t. That’s how. On top of this, there were/are people waiting, with great frustration, to gain legal entry into the U.S. Th benefit of their patience was that they would be able to enjoy our country above board and legally, while others would not enjoy that privelege. Amnesty did and does makes fools of those people. And fools of us for having laws we are not willing to enforce. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/63 "2006-04-10T16:40:53Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Fact: We have immigration laws, which were in effect at the time. > > Fact: People snuck into our country and others overstayed their visas, in violation of those laws. This was supossed to result in them being deported. > > Fact: It didn’t. > > That’s how. > > On top of this, there were/are people waiting, with great frustration, to gain legal entry into the U.S. Th benefit of their patience was that they would be able to enjoy our country above board and legally, while others would not enjoy that privelege. Amnesty did and does makes fools of those people. And fools of us for having laws we are not willing to enforce. The history is that those given amnesty were in this country. They still are. What you say is true about people waiting to get in getting screwed. Trying to help them by starting the immense task of throwing out those who have been here for years as a result of our inaction is foolish nonsense. The logistics, the history and the facts all are against it. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/64 "2006-04-10T17:07:33Z")
> [@even sven](#): > > There are no particular language requirements for legal immigrants (nor native born citizens), and we produce those materials (not just in Spanish) because it helps us have a safe, educated populace. Without translators, the wheels of justice could not turn, the vote could not be as meaningful, and our country would be worse off. Let the translators be supplied by advocacy groups. We do not have an official language, but we should. And I venture to say that what is happening now will, thankfully, re-energize [the movement](http://www.us-english.org/inc/) to do so. [This page](http://www.us-english.org/inc/official/fact%5Fsheets/db_multiling.asp) speaks to the financial costs. > [@even sven](#): > > Yeah, and I’m sure that treaty was voted on and accepted as part of a legitimate democratic process. It was crafted and passed in the representative democracy called the U.S. of A., in accordance with its Constitution. Therefore, it is legal and binding. Are you implying otherwise? > [@even sven](#): > > In any case, Spanish is a characteristic of the American Republic. In a very broad sense, yes. But by your logic, if there are places that Spanish is NOT a characteristic—a state or a municipality—then those places should be able to ban Spanish, right? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/65 "2006-04-10T17:37:21Z")
> [@David Simmons](#): > > The history is that those given amnesty were in this country. You asked how Reagan’s Amnesty Bill undid history. I explained that. Now you contort things by moving the clock forward so that the amnesty _is_ history. It helps in a discussion if the goalposts do not move. > [@David Simmons](#): > > What you say is true about people waiting to get in getting screwed. Trying to help them by starting the immense task of throwing out those who have been here for years as a result of our inaction is foolish nonsense. The logistics, the history and the facts all are against it. The logistics, make it difficlut, yes. The history can be construed any way you like. The facts? What facts are you alluding to that are not included in the logisics and the history? You think it foolish nonsense. Good for you. Very constructive debate fodder. The main obstacle is a lack of will on behalf of the American people, and more specifically, our elected leaders. There has been an unhealthy alliance between the two parties for too long now, in which each was happy to not bring the issue to the fore, albeit for different reasons. 911and the Border Patrol guys have focused eyes on the issue and now it will not go away. The recent marches have made me ecstatic, as they have forced less engaged Americans to see the scope of the problem. The preponderance of Mexican flags and the American flag flown in distress (by the way, what a great way to show a love of a country you want to be a part of) will do more to create the will that we need than all the newspaper articles, magazine pieces, books, and message board debates could ever do. Please, MORE MARCHES. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/66 "2006-04-10T17:50:33Z")
> [@suezeekay](#): > > Debit the amount it costs U.S. taxpayers to subsidize education, health care, housing, etc. for illegal Mexicans against the millions that we send in foreign aid to Mexico. The subsidies for other illegals is not that significant. Obviously this would reduce foreign aid to Mexico to zero. Are you aware of the significance of remittance payments by immigrants, both legal and not, to the countries of the families they send the money home to? [For Mexico, since you single it out for some reason, it’s on the order of $13 billion a year](http://www.iadb.org/exr/remittances/index.cfm), with the obvious multiplier effects on the local economy there. With no illegal immigrants, there would be much less money flowing there, no matter what government-to-government aid was still going on. But who would benefit? ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/67 "2006-04-10T17:52:32Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > You asked how Reagan’s Amnesty Bill undid history. I explained that. Now you contort things by moving the clock forward so that the amnesty _is_ history. > > **It happened. It’s history.** > > It helps in a discussion if the goalposts do not move. > > 😕 > > The logistics, make it difficlut, yes. The history can be construed any way you like. The facts? What facts are you alluding to that are not included in the logisics and the history? > > You think it foolish nonsense. Good for you. Very constructive debate fodder. > > **Like your ideas aren’t foolish? Not to mention simply black hearted and without even an ounce of compassion for your fellow man?** > > The main obstacle is a lack of will on behalf of the American people, and more specifically, our elected leaders. There has been an unhealthy alliance between the two parties for too long now, in which each was happy to not bring the issue to the fore, albeit for different reasons. 911and the Border Patrol guys have focused eyes on the issue and now it will not go away. The recent marches have made me ecstatic, as they have forced less engaged Americans to see the scope of the problem. The preponderance of Mexican flags and the American flag flown in distress (by the way, what a great way to show a love of a country you want to be a part of) > > \*\*A minority situation on the flag issue, especially the desecration part. \*\* > > will do more to create the will that we need than all the newspaper articles, magazine pieces, books, and message board debates could ever do. > > **It is useful propaganda.** > > Please, MORE MARCHES. > > **There have been. Peaceful without any US flag desecration and with many US flags flown by more people against the more draconian bill than for.** **responces in bold** ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/68 "2006-04-10T17:52:34Z")
[More on that](http://www.limitstogrowth.org/WEB-text/remittances.html) > [@](#): > > In some Central American nations, remittances are more than 10 percent of national GDP, e.g. 29 percent in Nicaragua and 15 percent in El Salvador. According to the International Monetary Fund, remittances have risen to more than $70 billion worldwide every year, an amount greater than total government aid to developing countries. > > In Mexico, public works that would be considered the province of government elsewhere may be financed by Mexican workers’ remittances sent to their hometowns. In fact, the practice has been institutionalized by el Presidente Fox, who offers matching funds in some cases. Fox, the former businessman, evidently has realized more than most in his position how the remittances maintain the status quo, despite the recent change in ruling parties. These roads and schools are projects that do not require taxation on Mexicans remaining at home. Incidentally, the Mexican ruling class has grown even wealthier in recent years. Forbes magazine reported that Mexicans comprise half the billionaires in Latin America. > [@](#): > > Still, some Zacatecans bemoan the new ghost towns, where nearly everyone has left for their better life in the U.S., abandoning rural Mexico. In an interesting twist, some in the area refuse to work in local factories and fields, preferring instead to wait for a check from the U.S. Evidently there are some jobs that Mexicans just won’t do. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/69 "2006-04-10T18:07:47Z")
> [@Unregistered Bull](#): > > **responces in bold** Would you kindly cease from your method of responding by simply bolding everything. It makes it difficult to read, but even more of a hassle to respond, like I was just going to do to your retorts to me. While you may make it easier for you, you make it more difficult for others. Regarding the Reagan’s Amnesty Bill, yes, it is history now, as it happened. But the point was that at the time of it’s enactment, it changed history, as I described. This was simpy a reply to **LHoD**. ---
**Author:** ![Unregistered\_Bull](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3da27b/32.png) [@Unregistered\_Bull](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unregistered_Bull)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/70 "2006-04-10T18:21:43Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Would you kindly cease from your method of responding by simply bolding everything. It makes it difficult to read, but even more of a hassle to respond, like I was just going to do to your retorts to me. While you may make it easier for you, you make it more difficult for others. > > Regarding the Reagan’s Amnesty Bill, yes, it is history now, as it happened. But the point was that at the time of it’s enactment, it changed history, as I described. This was simpy a reply to **LHoD**. I’ll try something else on replies. How did the Amnesty change History? Yesterday, they were illegal, today they’re legal. Yesterday didn’t change. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/71 "2006-04-10T18:31:58Z")
> [@Unregistered Bull](#): > > I’ll try something else on replies. How did the Amnesty change History? Yesterday, they were illegal, today they’re legal. Yesterday didn’t change. I’ll rtry this one more time. We had laws. They were broken. The people who did so were supposed to be sent back. Some people were here fro 5, 10, maybe 20 years. THAT history was a reality. The amnesty bill changed that reality. If you’re still unclear, please reread the exchange with **LHoD**. But that is enough on this very small tangential, semantical issue for me. All, is it possible to get back to the question in the OP? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/72 "2006-04-10T18:53:23Z")
It changed their _future_ from that point, not their history. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/73 "2006-04-10T18:57:55Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > I’ll rtry this one more time. We had laws. They were broken. The people who did so were supposed to be sent back. Some people were here fro 5, 10, maybe 20 years. THAT history was a reality. The amnesty bill changed that reality. > > If you’re still unclear, please reread the exchange with **LHoD**. But that is enough on this very small tangential, semantical issue for me. WHen you’re talking about what’s **supposed** to happen, by definition you’re talking about what hasn’t happened. Changing what’s supposed to happen doesn’t change the reality of what has happened. This is exactly what I’m talking about when I say that anti-immigration forces are living in an imaginary world and mistaking it for the real world. People are **supposed** to get along, sing Kum Bah Yah, and dance the hokey pokey. We liberals prefer to deal with the world as it is ;). Daniel (Okay, that was a cheap shot at conservatives; my apologies. The OP, however, is about a fantasy world, not about the world that we live in). ---
**Author:** ![bigpappadiaz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a698b9/32.png) [@bigpappadiaz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bigpappadiaz)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/74 "2006-04-10T19:05:19Z")
What we need here is a little famine to hit the States. With food shortages, the people of the US will naturally come together to single out and expel the illegals. We already got the ICE camps to handle the teeming millions. All we need is something to smoke 'em out. That’s what I see happening soon. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/75 "2006-04-10T19:05:33Z")
> [@Unregistered Bull](#): > > Like your ideas aren’t foolish? Not to mention simply black hearted and without even an ounce of compassion for your fellow man? This comment is well within the rules as typically enforced for this Forum. However, I have already suggested that, given the volatile nature of the topic, I think it would be better if we kept personal remarks regarding other posters (including, in this case, personal observations of the views of other posters) to a minimum. Thank you. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/76 "2006-04-10T19:12:01Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > WHen you’re talking about what’s **supposed** to happen, by definition you’re talking about what hasn’t happened. Changing what’s supposed to happen doesn’t change the reality of what has happened. It used to be a fair assumption that laws would be enforced. I guess not so much any more. So much for a land of laws… > [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > This is exactly what I’m talking about when I say that anti-immigration forces are living in an imaginary world and mistaking it for the real world. People are **supposed** to get along, sing Kum Bah Yah, and dance the hokey pokey. We liberals prefer to deal with the world as it is ;). And wouldn’t you say that “getting along” means respecting each other’s rules, boundaries and laws? I’m sure that if there was some hot sweltering day in Ashville and you had a cool, delicious-looking pool, that I might really, really, really, really want to take a dip in that pool. And why not, it’s right there? So I’l just go get my towel, out it out on a lounge chair, maybe bring a book, and dive right in. No problem, right. And hey, what’s that I see through the window, a nice big refrigerator. I bet there’s some nice cool drinks in there? Maybe I’ll just walk in a take a look. Great, Snapple Peach Ic ed Tea. I’ll just leacve a buck and a half and go back to my towel, book and heat up for another dip. Ahhhhhhhhhh. No problem, right? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/77 "2006-04-10T19:21:48Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And wouldn’t you say that “getting along” means respecting each other’s rules, boundaries and laws? I’m sure that if there was some hot sweltering day in Ashville and you had a cool, delicious-looking pool, that I might really, really, really, really want to take a dip in that pool. And why not, it’s right there? So I’l just go get my towel, out it out on a lounge chair, maybe bring a book, and dive right in. Instead of diving in, how about sliding in? You’ve got such a lovely slippery slope there, after all. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/78 "2006-04-10T19:32:00Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Instead of diving in, how about sliding in? You’ve got such a lovely slippery slope there, after all. Slippery slope!!! I guess you don’t know what a slippery slope argument is. I suggest Wiki. I presented an analogy. Address it. Don’t try to be so…slippery. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/79 "2006-04-10T19:48:37Z")
> [@bigpappadiaz](#): > > What we need here is a little famine to hit the States. With food shortages, the people of the US will naturally come together to single out and expel the illegals. We already got the ICE camps to handle the teeming millions. All we need is something to smoke 'em out. Given that illegal immigrants make up a large proportion of the US agricultural and food-processing workforce, I’d say that responding to food shortages by rounding up and expelling the people who are providing our food would be pretty damn suicidal. The reason there are so many illegal immigrants in the US workforce is because US employers want them here and can get away with overworking and underpaying them. (And also because the economies of their own countries are in such bad shape that even being overworked and underpaid in _el Norte_ looks like a good deal by comparison.) If we don’t like that, then we need to deal with the problem at the source, rather than just constructing fantasy scenarios about sending millions of people to detention camps. If we got serious about enforcing US labor law, so that all workers had to be paid at least minimum wage, had to follow proper safety and health procedures, couldn’t be fired for trying to start a union, etc., then employers couldn’t make so much money out of employing undocumented immigrants, and there would be less incentive to encourage them to come here. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2006, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926/80 "2006-04-10T20:27:49Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > If we got serious about enforcing US labor law, so that all workers had to be paid at least minimum wage, had to follow proper safety and health procedures, couldn’t be fired for trying to start a union, etc., then employers couldn’t make so much money out of employing undocumented immigrants, and there would be less incentive to encourage them to come here. All workers do have to be paid a minimum wage. Everything else is against the law. Hiring an illegal is against the law. Working off the books is against the law. I do think that any solution starts with two things: going after the employers (drying up the demand) and securing our borders (preventiing the problem we have from becoming an even larger one.) As far as you’re analysisl, I think you have it backwards. Raising the cost of doing business will just tempt employers even more to hire illegals and save a buck. But now because you’re raised the cost of doing business, the employers will be willing to pay illegals more than they have been, because they would be paying less than they would for legal workers. So the disparity between the illegal wage a person could get here and what he could get in a country like Mexico becomes greater. And the greater that disparity, the stronger the lure of those higher paying jobs in the U.S. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-the-best-way-to-expel-illegals-and-start-over-with-legal-immigration/351926.md?page=5)