# What would be wrong with a norm of explicit, enthusiastic consent to every sex act? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 16, 2018, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-wrong-with-a-norm-of-explicit-enthusiastic-consent-to-every-sex-act/806734 "2018-01-16T05:12:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-wrong-with-a-norm-of-explicit-enthusiastic-consent-to-every-sex-act/806734/61 "2018-01-16T19:24:24Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > … That was supposed to be satire, not a real suggestion. … this is serious? for me it read as a mockery of the prudery of the anglosaxons. my god, spare us from the anglo-prudery. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > : “Hey, you can come up to my place/hotel room, but you don’t have to. And even if you do, nothing will happen that you’re not comfortable with. No hard feelings if you don’t want to come up, and no hard feelings if you want to come up but don’t want to do anything.” And after that, if they chose to come up, any intimate encounters would be gradual, with plenty of pauses. it is so preciously stereotype of the sensitive prude american… but you are serious claiming you did this monologue? Mme Deneuve is very right about this tendency. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-wrong-with-a-norm-of-explicit-enthusiastic-consent-to-every-sex-act/806734/62 "2018-01-16T19:29:36Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > it is so preciously stereotype of the sensitive prude american… but you are serious claiming you did this monologue? > > Mme Deneuve is very right about this tendency. There wasn’t a script (I’d wing it), but that was the spirit of it, yeah. Most of the women I dated (including my eventual wife) were not American, but at least in my experience the response was overwhelmingly positive. My tone of voice probably had something to do with it – it was a laid back “hey, whatever you want is cool with me” tone of voice, if that makes any sense. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-wrong-with-a-norm-of-explicit-enthusiastic-consent-to-every-sex-act/806734/63 "2018-01-16T19:32:36Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > I dunno. I think I’d be really creeped out by a guy who explicitly promised not to rape me when inviting me back to his place. And I’d definitely be put off by a guy who turned me down because he didn’t feel my YES was enthusiastic enough. I’d be – who does this guy think he is….it’s our first time and he’s trying to make me beg for it? What an egomaniacal psychopath. Thanks. That was exactly my reaction, but I thought better of posting it, thinking maybe I’m just a clueless male. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-wrong-with-a-norm-of-explicit-enthusiastic-consent-to-every-sex-act/806734/64 "2018-01-16T19:32:41Z")
The affirmation at every step of the way would never work with me, anyway. Because if my partner has enough cognitive function left in his brain to form a single coherent sentence while in bed with me, I’m off my game. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-wrong-with-a-norm-of-explicit-enthusiastic-consent-to-every-sex-act/806734/65 "2018-01-16T19:37:15Z")
I didn’t mean to get into an intimate discussion requiring a defense of my own tendencies when I was dating, so I think I’ll bow out, as I’m getting less and less comfortable with every post. I have a great relationship with my wife, so I’ll leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![Ramira](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ramira/32/344_2.png) [@Ramira](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ramira)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-wrong-with-a-norm-of-explicit-enthusiastic-consent-to-every-sex-act/806734/66 "2018-01-16T19:40:11Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > I dunno. I think I’d be really creeped out by a guy who explicitly promised not to rape me when inviting me back to his place. And I’d definitely be put off by a guy who turned me down because he didn’t feel my YES was enthusiastic enough. I’d be – who does this guy think he is….it’s our first time and he’s trying to make me beg for it? What an egomaniacal psychopath. Exactely. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-wrong-with-a-norm-of-explicit-enthusiastic-consent-to-every-sex-act/806734/67 "2018-01-16T19:45:26Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It does seem that we’re trying to push things to a genderless society, and yet gender is a stubborn thing. Well, some people wish for a genderless society. Other people just want more flexibility about what gender to belong to, instead of being assigned to one on the basis of their parts. Independent of that, there are plenty of people who want to correct a power imbalance and give women sexual self-determination, but who don’t see that as incompatible with keeping gender around more or less as we have it. There are a few of us going around making the claim that gender has the power imbalances built into it, that they’re eroticized as part of what gender _is_ to people. But even among us there’s no consensus about whether that means gender has to be tossed out entirely. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-wrong-with-a-norm-of-explicit-enthusiastic-consent-to-every-sex-act/806734/68 "2018-01-16T19:46:04Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > Just want to add that I’m reading and hearing from a meaningful number of women for whom this _is_ about existing relationships; that enthusiastic/explicit consent would mean that lots of wives and girlfriends would stop having sex with their partners (or stop having sex as frequently) because right now they’re feeling forced into it. > > I think there’s a lot to unpack there, but it does indicate that there’s a deeper issue here than the complications of hook-up culture, and one that doesn’t go away once people are in committed relationships. But what does " feeling forced into it" really mean? Does it mean she actually feels afraid to say no? If that’s the case, why wouldn’t she be afraid not to “enthusiastically consent”? Does it mean she has sex when she doesn’t want to because she’s afraid he’ll leave her if they don’t have sex often enough to suit him. Requiring enthusiastic consent won’t stop him from leaving - it may end the sex if she’s not enthusiastic, but it doesn’t mean he won’t leave. I really don’t know what the women you are talking about think they will gain. ``` I'm sure there's a deeper issue- but I'm not sure the issue is about consent. ``` ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-wrong-with-a-norm-of-explicit-enthusiastic-consent-to-every-sex-act/806734/69 "2018-01-16T19:51:30Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > But what does " feeling forced into it" really mean? Does it mean she actually feels afraid to say no? If that’s the case, why wouldn’t she be afraid not to “enthusiastically consent”? Does it mean she has sex when she doesn’t want to because she’s afraid he’ll leave her if they don’t have sex often enough to suit him. Requiring enthusiastic consent won’t stop him from leaving - it may end the sex if she’s not enthusiastic, but it doesn’t mean he won’t leave. I really don’t know what the women you are talking about think they will gain. > > ``` > I'm sure there's a deeper issue- but I'm not sure the issue is about consent. > > ``` I think a lack of understanding about the relationship ( or lack thereof ) is more frequently an issue than a lack of understanding regarding the sex act. I’d elaborate, but I’m late for work. I may post more tonight. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-wrong-with-a-norm-of-explicit-enthusiastic-consent-to-every-sex-act/806734/70 "2018-01-16T19:52:20Z")
If flirting works as intended, express enthusiastic consent is unnecessary. You already have all the implied consent both parties could ever need. This proposed standard seems to me to, inadvertently, potentially give a bunch of negative unintended implications: - 'I’m worried that you may be about to victimize me with a false narrative that I’ve sexually assaulted you, resulting in severe employment, civil or criminal consequences for me - particularly in this day and age of “#metoo”. I need to protect myself from liability! Express verbal consent to each act is now the gold standard, so if you don’t mind … ’ - ‘I’m personally insecure and need a lot of confirmation you actually like this.’ - ‘I don’t really understand flirting. Your nonverbal messages that you are hot for me - up to and including going back to my place and taking off your clothes - well, I’m sorta deaf to that stuff. Please spell out, in detail, what exactly you want.’ - ‘I’m into stuff that most people can be reasonably expected to find … offputting. Just to be sure I don’t give offence, I’m going to ask you about each and every act, building up to the crazy stuff I’m really into.’ ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-wrong-with-a-norm-of-explicit-enthusiastic-consent-to-every-sex-act/806734/71 "2018-01-16T19:54:37Z")
> [@doreen](#): > > But what does " feeling forced into it" really mean? Does it mean she actually feels afraid to say no? If that’s the case, why wouldn’t she be afraid not to “enthusiastically consent”? Does it mean she has sex when she doesn’t want to because she’s afraid he’ll leave her if they don’t have sex often enough to suit him. Requiring enthusiastic consent won’t stop him from leaving - it may end the sex if she’s not enthusiastic, but it doesn’t mean he won’t leave. I really don’t know what the women you are talking about think they will gain. > > ``` > I'm sure there's a deeper issue- but I'm not sure the issue is about consent. > > ``` I don’t know the answer (I think they would say it’s varying degrees of all of those, along with a deep, learned habit of acquiescence and fear of men’s deep, learned habit of getting what they want sexually), and I agree that the deeper issue is not about consent. I think ‘enthusiastic’ consent is an ineffective band-aid solution for these other issues that are much more difficult for us as a society to identify, agree on, and fix. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-wrong-with-a-norm-of-explicit-enthusiastic-consent-to-every-sex-act/806734/72 "2018-01-16T19:58:36Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > Well, some people wish for a genderless society. Other people just want more flexibility about what gender to belong to, instead of being assigned to one on the basis of their parts. Independent of that, there are plenty of people who want to correct a power imbalance and give women sexual self-determination, but who don’t see that as incompatible with keeping gender around more or less as we have it. > > There are a few of us going around making the claim that gender has the power imbalances built into it, that they’re eroticized as part of what gender _is_ to people. But even among us there’s no consensus about whether that means gender has to be tossed out entirely. I’ve always felt that people are different and that your gender shouldn’t define who you are. You can be whoever you want to be. I prefer women to make the first move, which might be why I’ve only ever been with two. But I’ve also never been accused of sexual misconduct or even being a jerk(in a sexual way, in regular ways I’ve often been a jerk). ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Crap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.crap/32/3131_2.png) [@Dr.Crap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Crap)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-wrong-with-a-norm-of-explicit-enthusiastic-consent-to-every-sex-act/806734/73 "2018-01-16T20:16:19Z")
**Frylock** , may I masturbate while reading your posts? ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-wrong-with-a-norm-of-explicit-enthusiastic-consent-to-every-sex-act/806734/74 "2018-01-16T20:21:05Z")
> [@Do\_Not\_Taunt](#): > > I’m struggling to understand what’s better about this as compared to, “Hey, you wanna come up?” Or even just, “You up?” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-wrong-with-a-norm-of-explicit-enthusiastic-consent-to-every-sex-act/806734/75 "2018-01-16T20:26:16Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I didn’t mean to get into an intimate discussion requiring a defense of my own tendencies when I was dating, so I think I’ll bow out, as I’m getting less and less comfortable with every post. I have a great relationship with my wife, so I’ll leave it at that. It’s OK for you to stop or leave whenever you want. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-wrong-with-a-norm-of-explicit-enthusiastic-consent-to-every-sex-act/806734/76 "2018-01-16T20:37:11Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > It’s OK for you to stop or leave whenever you want. LOL! I thought of that as soon as I re-read my post. Thank you for your thoughtfulness and care for my feelings! ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-wrong-with-a-norm-of-explicit-enthusiastic-consent-to-every-sex-act/806734/77 "2018-01-16T21:56:09Z")
> [@Dr.Crap](#): > > **Frylock** , may I masturbate while reading your posts? Don’t forget your script: > [@](#): > > A: “I’m going to do X now.” > B: “Cool do it!” > A: “Okay now I’m going to Y” > B: “Alright! I’m into it.” > A: “Can I do Z now?” > B: “Yes, please do!” > A: “I suggest now we do A, B, and then C.” > B: “I’m down!” You’re playing both roles. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-wrong-with-a-norm-of-explicit-enthusiastic-consent-to-every-sex-act/806734/78 "2018-01-16T22:10:56Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > Don’t forget your script: > > You’re playing both roles. “A” might prove challenging. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-wrong-with-a-norm-of-explicit-enthusiastic-consent-to-every-sex-act/806734/79 "2018-01-16T22:41:58Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > My understanding is that those doing CNC things have safe words, which allows either person to stop the action. Trusting long term relationships have safe words also, though they can be “no” or “stop that” and not a special word. > Much more efficient. While this is true in many cases, in some cases the sub doesn’t want a safeword and wants the dom to take full control, trusting the dom will read their body language properly. Or they’ll have 2 safewords, the fake safeword they want the dom to ignore, and the real safeword for stopping things. Plus some subs will put up token resistance, hoping to be overpowered and ignored. It gets complicated. Either way, its a situation that you shouldn’t be in unless you’ve got an established sexual relationship and you are good at reading verbal and non-verbal cues. I’ve been reading your posts on SD for years **Voyager** , I think this is the first time we’ve discussed sex. It feels like I’m talking about it with my father for some reason. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2018, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-wrong-with-a-norm-of-explicit-enthusiastic-consent-to-every-sex-act/806734/80 "2018-01-16T22:44:03Z")
In the bdsm community, going without a safeword is considered extremely dangerous, and is strongly discouraged. There are certainly people who do it but… it’s generally considered foolish. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-wrong-with-a-norm-of-explicit-enthusiastic-consent-to-every-sex-act/806734.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-be-wrong-with-a-norm-of-explicit-enthusiastic-consent-to-every-sex-act/806734.md?page=5)