What would be wrong with dropping the income tax entirely?

You’re referring to a real effect, and an interesting one, but you’ve got the effect reversed. If we’re looking at a person with interesting labor/leisure preferences, such that they only desire a certain minimum level of income, then they would work less when they earn a higher wage (a labor supply curve that eventually slopes backward). In that case, a specifically targeted income tax, if such could be arranged, isn’t going to provide a disincentive to work. It will cause the opposite: by lowering their income with the tax, they’ll actually work more hours to maintain the standard level of consumption. In that sense, taxing income can provide – in certain select situations – an incentive to work more.

This is rare incentive to work, and it’d apply equally to both kinds of taxes.

The bigger effect is the other way, and it only applies to income taxes not consumption taxes. At higher income levels, the evidence is fairly clear that excessively high rates carry a lot of weight. The weight doesn’t necessarily have to be disincentive to work (although that’s likely a factor for spouses of high-earners, if not for high earners themselves), it could just as easily be tax avoidance. Sucks, but that’s life. Whatever the reason, underlying incentives or practical considerations in tax collection, countries have had problems raising adequate funds through income taxes. Lots of social democracies in Europe had higher income taxes in the past, and those ended up coming down almost everywhere. They rely now on a mixture of income tax and a fairly stiff VAT of up to 20%. Japan too is talking about a push of 5% to 10% on their own consumption tax (which has no planned exceptions for things like groceries). The US will eventually need to make up its budget shortfalls in some way, and a lot of very sensible people are advocating a VAT. Problem is, that could, maybe, hit poor people harder, even given exceptions like groceries, than a properly instituted progressive consumption tax.

I’d bet a hundred bucks that we’ll have a VAT within 20 years, but I think a progressive consumption tax is worth some genuine consideration as an alternative. And a progressive consumption tax has other potential advantages. (I don’t agree with everything in that, by the way, but I think it’s an interesting perspective that deserves more thought.)

Demand is the number one issue right now with the economy.

It shouldn’t be.

Demand problems aren’t real problems. They are dirt simple to fix. Yes, we have insufficient demand at the moment, and it’s completely ridiculous. The reason why demand is an issue is the stupidity of our policy makers. Any reduction of demand, whether it’s caused by the collapse of a bubble or a new tax on consumption, can be offset by expansion of demand elsewhere, normally by easier money. It’s true we don’t have that sort of sensibleness going for us at the moment, but that’s exactly why I previously said macro/money (meaning, the business cycle) is a more important issue right now. An economy should never, ever be dealing with a demand shortfall. Demand is easy to fix. Eventually, people will once again figure that out, though possibly after it’s too late for the euro.

Investment in future consumption, obviously. That is what investment is.

And future consumption does not have to decrease, even with less current consumption. People in the 19th century consumed less in order to build more factories. Because of that, people today are able to both invest and consume more than people could even imagine in the 19th century. That is what investment is. It is not about having more consumption today, it’s about having more available next year and next decade and next century. The whole point of consuming less now is to have more possibilities open in the future. The US saves too little, and that’ll be extremely important again after the cyclical demand problem is over.

This is absolutely true. Even to maintain mere revenue neutrality, it would have to be both much steeper and reach a much higher marginal rate. Where exactly? Dunno.

But so what? None of the traditional conservative objections to high marginal income tax rates apply directly to high marginal consumption tax rates.

If it’s really doable – an open question – it would be a more efficient system, possibly better than a VAT which is the only feasible alternative I see. I think the current consensus about the budget (among people who know what they’re about) has income tax rates going up, but still not enough to deal with our longer-term problems. We’re going to have a federal consumption tax of one sort or another. A more fundamental overhaul should at least be considered.

This particular type of tax avoidance shouldn’t fly if the tax administration works as advertised.

They can’t pay for their smuggled iPads with wishes and dreams. They’ll need to draw down one of their accounts, in some manner, to make the purchase. That would show up in the files, and be appropriately marked as consumption.

If their own recorded accounts are being avoided entirely, if income is being routed directly from their employers, or some illegally hidden overseas investments, with the funds transferred to the sellers of luxury merchandise in the US, then sure, that’s a huge tax evasion problem. Maybe the advocates of this plan underestimate the anonymity of the current international payments architecture. I can’t say for certain. Anyway, my tentative impression at the moment is that with the right oversight system, it could work without too much dodging. Willing to rethink that if there’s compelling reason to believe the contrary. But the thing is, the rich already spend a lot of time trying to dodge tax. The question isn’t whether this would be perfect, but whether it would work better than what we got.

That sounds like my income tax; the difference is that the government doesn’t care whether my non-deductibles have gone towards consumption (which gets its own taxes) or not. I’m self-employed (autónoma) in Spain.
Money made in the last quarter - money spent on business needs in the last quarter = A
look up which tax range A falls into -> get B
A*B = amount due

That’s every quarter. Once a year during income tax season:
(Money made in year - money spent on business needs in year - SS tax paid in year - (mortgage + retirement fund deductions)) = A’
look up which tax range A falls into -> get B’
(A’*B’)-amount paid in quarterly installments = itty bitty amount which the government owes me
For the lowest income ranges, B equals zero.

The only way this could be even remotely fair is if you also taxed the purchase of equities (stocks).

The argument against that (it would disincentivize investment) is no more persuasive than the argument that a consumption tax disincentivizes consumption. Both hurt the economy equally, and for the same reason, so if you are against one, you pretty much have to be against the other, or risk looking like an opportunistic hypocrite.

Latest figures from the IRS estimate the voluntary tax compliance rate at about 83%. It’s much simpler to audit and collect sales tax from licensed retailers (who only number about 10% as many as individual taxpayers) with their ability to do business on the line than it is to audit and collect income taxes from businesses and self-employed people.

There are many reasonable arguments against a national consumption tax instead of income taxes but compliance isn’t one of them.

Dr. Freud is ready to see you now. :slight_smile:

If IBM merged with the pentagon and took over the country you’d have communism :smiley: and if I had some ham I could make a ham sandwich, if I had some bread.

**in a market economy, we traditionally subsidize the producers of popular goods by giving the people the ability to pay. **
This is where you are wrong people are not given the ability to pay, people gain the ability to pay by producing something of value. The money is not wealth it is just a medium of exchange. Money in itself is worthless it is useful as a measure of the value of something. Without producing something of value to the rest of the economy the consumer can not have the money to spend. The more that is produced the more wealth that is in the economy.
I am sure the people in Haiti would like flat screen televisions and iPhones as much as the people in American do. The difference is that people in America produce enough to pay for them but people in Haiti do not.
What can be confusing to people is the talk of inadequate demand and the need for more aggregate demand. What is meant is demand at a certain price. Demand changes depending on price. For example, I enjoy eating crab legs. I would like to eat them all the time, but they are expensive so I hardly ever eat them. My demand for crab legs is huge, but my demand at the current price is small. Demand for thread before the industrial revolution was just as high as it was after, the difference is that the industrial revolution allowed people to produce more and fulfill the previously existing demand. Demand is practically infinite, what determines wealth is supply and for that you need production.

This is not true, investment is what drives the economy. If you hurt investment, you automatically hurt the economy more than if you hurt consumption. If I purchase a car for $10,000 I get a $10,000 dollar car. If I invest $10,000 dollars in a car business then that business if successful may produce $20,000 dollars worth of cars. The economy is up $10,000 because of the investment.
Investment is just delayed consumption, no one buys stock because they enjoy having fancy pieces of paper in a safe, they do it for future consumption. If the investment pays off then the future consumption will be higher than the present consumption so by taxing consumption you end up taxing people who invest, just at a different time.

it is true that investment is future consumption, but investment decisions are based on the expectation of future consumption. If all businesses increased investment today, by building and hiring, I agree that the demand problem would take care of itself. And I agree that the problem is dirt simple for the government to fix, if it weren’t the case that one side is too stupid to see dirt simple things.
But one of the causes of the Bubble was that a lot of companies were investing in the expectation of consumption that were unrealistic. We had companies like pets.com who saw a market that did not exist, but we also had networking companies building out infrastructure far in excess of any realistic level of demand.
I agree that one of the reasons to consume less now is to have more later. Depressed consumer consumption during WW II is a good if forced example of this. But some reduced consumption today is the result of fear. And if the consumption tax is permanent, wouldn’t the reduction in consumption from higher prices also be permanent?
To anticipate an objection - classically homo economicus would know that a well designed progressive tax would give him exactly the money in reduced income taxes that he would spend in increased consumption taxes, so his consumption rate should be unaffected. However, and I’d have to ask my daughter if there have been experiments on this, I would guess that the valuation of price versus perceived value would be sticky, and cause many people to see even things with the same effective price as being more expensive. Hell, I still think any shirts that cost more than the ones I bought in high school 40 years ago are ripoffs.
Would the government take its money not at the point of sale? See below for problems with that.

Pretty high I’d guess. I certainly agree that a progressive tax is better than a flat one, but for the Romneys of the world you’d almost have to make it > 100% - especially in comparison to some reasonable high bracket tax rate.

Sure. It encourages investment, supposedly. However, there would certainly be lobbying against a 1%er rate that would be high enough to make up for lost revenue, especially by conservatives, and we’d wind up with a lower rate as a compromise and lose revenue.

A supplemental VAT is another matter entirely, without many of the problems I mentioned.

Well, this would unify liberal and conservatives, neither of whom would be too happy at the government looking into our accounts to monitor our purchasing as a matter of course. Our credit card companies know what we’re buying, but only on that card. The government knowing to the level of detail required to see if a purchase is on an excluded item or not would make almost anyone shudder. Except people who’d think this would be a wonderful data source to study purchasing habits, that is!

Tell that to the people who invested in pets.com.

And if you invested in an Edsel dealership, you would have been better off buying the car. Investment is good if the probability of a return exceeds whatever RoI number you set. Investment is bad otherwise. Clearly businesses today see that investment is not a good idea. Do you think they are stupid?

If you buy the wrong stock you had better enjoy the fancy pieces of paper, since that is all you’ll have left. (I know this for a fact. :frowning: ) Actually, you don’t even get the fancy pieces of paper anymore, just electrons.

There have been times, late '70s early '80s, where there was a shortage of investment money, thanks to high inflation, and reducing consumption would have been a good thing. But that is not the case today.

Let’s say the richer taxpayer pays 100 times more than the poorer taxpayer*. That’s what our current system is based on. In order to remain revenue neutral, any new taxing scheme would have to maintain that ratio. Does that hypothetical wealthy taxpayer make 100x more purchases than the middle class taxpayer? He probably makes more, but nowhere near 100x as much. Where would that missing revenue come from?

The consumption tax is seductive because it is simple and superficially sounds like a fair shake. But it’s really just a less jarring way to propose “Let’s cut taxes dramatically for the rich and watch the government crumble from lack of funding.”

  • I think we can all agree that simple math demonstrates that the richest Americans earn vastly more than 100x more than the lower-middle class ones, but 100 is a nice round conservative number for the sake of discussion.

You don’t have to guess. From the link I posted on page 1, page 30.

The average income of the bottom 20% is $13,200. They pay an average 6.5% of their income in sales taxes, or $858. For simplicity, say CA sales taxes are 10%, this would mean they buy $8,580 of taxable goods, which is 65% of their income. (Pretty much all of it - their income tax is only 0.1% of their total income.)

The top 1% have an average income of $2,180,900, and pay an average 0.8% of that in sales taxes. That is $17,447, or taxable goods worth $174,470. Sounds like a lot, but it is only 8% of their income. California income taxes are 7.5% of their income, so they would have to pay nearly a 100% consumption tax to make up even the California income tax - and the Federal tax is much higher, even for Mitt. This of course assumes consumption patterns won’t be changed by boosting the tax.
So, I’d say your intuition is correct.

Hellestal, I can understand why economists looking for more empirical data would love to have the IRS track every purchase FOR SCIENCE! But wouldn’t it be easier to get the effect of your progressive consumption tax by having a progressive income tax, and then giving exemptions for monies saved in defined ways?

So imagine a régime wherein we have a progressive income tax, but we exempt monies verifiably invested. It would be a little different from our present capital gains tax break, but the same sort of principle. To my New Dealer eyes, it looks like an attempt to change the way Big Capital gets tax breaks, so the working-class left is temporarily confused by a new tactic as the tax code appears to be “reformed.” It’s just right-wing bobbing and weaving.

In the end, with this proposed, you can expect me to be opposed to it alongside the other lefties.

Investment does not drive the economy. Corporations are sitting on two trillion dollars of cash, waiting for consumers to start buying again. No amount of new investment will stimulate the economy.

Investment does not drive the economy. Please stop spreading ignorance.

To be fair, the problem is that they are sitting on this money without investing it. If they actually invest this money it would help - assuming they do it here and not in China, of course. Giving banks and corporations and rich people tax breaks to allow them to invest does no good unless they do so.
Maybe we could give the rich tax breaks but take the money back unless they actually do invest it.

I’d raise taxes and have public investment. That would count for a lot more.

FWIW, I recently read this article.

You socialist you! :smiley: Actually, since we have so many high return projects available, only some of which got done using the stimulus money, this is the best idea of all, and would siphon some of that pile of cash into more productive uses.

If a consuption tax is implemented, how do you get around having saved money being taxed twice? Would somebody on the brink of retirement who saved for 40 years suddenly have to work an extra 10 years because his savings and Roth IRA would now be subjected to additional taxes?

What about those who can’t afford to ‘consume’? How would they be taxed?

Yes - and they are myriad. How would you fund an economy without income tax? You couldn’t.

Sorry, without access to that article, you’re gonna struggle here.