# What would happen if a president really did refuse to give up the presidency? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 3, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166 "2015-07-03T21:26:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/21 "2015-07-04T02:52:58Z")
There’s no such thing as an Oath of Leaving Office that marks the official end of a Presidential term. It just happens automatically at a certain time. At that point they give the incoming President the Oath of Office and he’s the new President. From then on, the former President has no more legal authority than you or I do. Obviously, if the American military falls in behind the former President and chooses to do what he says, he’s going to be in a good condition to overthrow the government and declare himself the new leader. But the same would be true if the American military decided to back Britney Spears. ---
**Author:** ![DinoR](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dinor/32/2821_2.png) [@DinoR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DinoR)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/22 "2015-07-04T02:54:33Z")
Am I the only person that had the image of the Secret Service changing the impending squatter’s code name to Elvis. Last day when they chuck him out the gate onto Pennsylvania Avenue someone could come over the radio and announce… “Elvis has left the building.” ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/23 "2015-07-04T02:59:53Z")
It did happen with Arkansas Gov Jim Guy Tucker. It got pretty tense during those four hours. Thankfully it got resolved without triggering a state constitutional crises. Tucker became Governor after Clinton won the presidency. > **[Arkansas Governor Resigns After Furor (Published 1996)](https://www.nytimes.com/1996/07/16/us/arkansas-governor-resigns-after-furor.html)** > [@](#): > > Gov. Jim Guy Tucker resigned today after four hours of chaos in which he effectively held the governorship hostage and was threatened with impeachment by his successor. > > The resignation of Mr. Tucker, a 53-year-old Democrat, was finally submitted effective at 7 tonight. A short time later, Lieut. Gov. Mike Huckabee, a Republican, was sworn in to succeed him. > > Within hours of his May 28 conviction for fraud and conspiracy in a Whitewater-related case, Mr. Tucker had announced that he would resign not later than today and devote full time to pursuing his appeal. Hundreds of state legislators, staff members and observers gathered in the chamber of the Arkansas House of Representatives today, anticipating the scheduled 3 P.M. swearing-in of Mr. Huckabee. > > But then a legislative staff member read a letter in which Mr. Tucker rescinded his resignation, saying he was instead taking a leave of absence while his lawyers argued for a quick reversal of his conviction. Mr. Tucker said the Arkansas Constitution provided that he could leave office temporarily, assigning all executive powers to Mr. Huckabee on only an interim basis. ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/24 "2015-07-04T03:02:29Z")
The prez decides the new elect is the worst possible person to be running the country and decides to stay in place. Then what? He sits in the oval office and writes out dictates and then what? Who is he going to get to enforce his edicts? Without significant support of the people or the military he’s just whistling to an empty room. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/25 "2015-07-04T03:21:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > They’d be impeached, and rightly so. Not going to happen. Not impeached, I think, because they wouldn’t actually be President. They’d be an illegal pretender, and would be arrested and convicted of other federal crimes, such as impersonating a federal office-holder. If the Constitution is sufficiently in force for there to be impeachment hearings at all, then it is probably sufficiently in force for the Secret Service to put him in restraints and drag him away. Now…if there is a major and serious constitutional crisis… Wow… Suppose there’s a MAJOR election scandal. Say some state official in Ohio declares the state’s electoral votes are for candidate X…but another state official declares they were for candidate Y instead. Now both candidates can, with some vague legitimacy, claim to be President Elect. Say the courts are divided, and the Supreme Court can’t manage to make a clear ruling. Inauguration Day rolls around, and we don’t have a clear winner. Okay, the House of Representatives takes it up… But suppose no majority vote can be obtained… Bad things could happen. Bush v. Gore was about as ugly as we can expect it to get. Tilden/Hayes was very bad, as was the Burr/Jefferson farrago. That last was probably the worst this country ever had to face. And we survived all those. So…ain’t worried. ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/26 "2015-07-04T03:31:26Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > They’d be impeached, and rightly so. Not going to happen. You can’t be impeached if you don’t actually hold an office. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/27 "2015-07-04T03:58:31Z")
The now Former President would be forcefully escorted to Bethesda for “Exhaustion”. That’s it. Nothing else happens, period. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/28 "2015-07-04T04:05:31Z")
Makes me wonder what would happen if an enemy nation attacked the US right in the middle of, or after, Inauguration. Who has control over the nuclear football, who gives orders? At what precise moment does power switch hands? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/29 "2015-07-04T04:15:09Z")
The whole affair is so carefully orchestrated, it’s almost certain the Department of Defense has “make before break” protocols long established. There would never be any meaningful risk of having two presidents…or none. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/30 "2015-07-04T14:51:03Z")
From Game of Thrones: > [@](#): > > Petyr Baelish: When The Queen proclaims one King and the King’s Hand proclaims another, whose peace do the Goldcloaks protect? Who do they follow? The man who pays them. Congress controls the salaries of the Secret Service and the Military. If they do not follow the orders of the newly elected President, then Congress could simply stop paying them. So unless the Dictator wannabe has enough money to support an army, he’ll probably get escorted off the White House grounds by the Secret Service who will immediately start following the orders of the new President. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/31 "2015-07-04T15:00:52Z")
What is the eviction process in D.C? In my state it would take over a month to get the family out of the house. He still wouldn’t be president of course. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/32 "2015-07-04T15:03:31Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Makes me wonder what would happen if an enemy nation attacked the US right in the middle of, or after, Inauguration. Who has control over the nuclear football, who gives orders? At what precise moment does power switch hands? > [@Trinopus](#): > > The whole affair is so carefully orchestrated, it’s almost certain the Department of Defense has “make before break” protocols long established. There would never be any meaningful risk of having two presidents…or none. I would bet it’s so closely aligned that there’s an audible “click” all over DC at the moment the new Prez says “…God.” Unless it happens at precisely noon on January 20th, regardless of whether formalities like the oath have been concluded. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/33 "2015-07-04T15:23:13Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Makes me wonder what would happen if an enemy nation attacked the US right in the middle of, or after, Inauguration. Who has control over the nuclear football, who gives orders? At what precise moment does power switch hands? This concern has been resolved before. I think it was 1940. Had Wendell Willkie won the election, and the 3rd term was a real issue, there was a plan to make him VP. I think this part was convoluted because he had to be made Speaker, then the VP would resign, then FDR would resign, so that WW could take office soon after the election and not wait until 1941. World events being what they were in Fall of '40, this made sense. Anyway, FDR won. But if we were really facing a potential crisis like an attack, I think we would easily work it out. (I’m going from memory, if the above is wrong, please correct me.) ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/34 "2015-07-04T15:35:30Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Makes me wonder what would happen if an enemy nation attacked the US right in the middle of, or after, Inauguration. Who has control over the nuclear football, who gives orders? At what precise moment does power switch hands? This concern has been resolved before. I think it was 1940. Had Wendell Willkie won the election, and the 3rd term was a real issue, there was a plan to make him VP. I think this part was convoluted because he had to be made Speaker, then the VP would resign, then FDR would resign, so that WW could take office soon after the election and not wait until 1941. World events being what they were in Fall of '40, this made sense. Anyway, FDR won. But if we were really facing a potential crisis like an attack, I think we would easily work it out. (I’m going from memory, if the above is wrong, please correct me.) ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/35 "2015-07-04T15:37:32Z")
Shit; I hope I’m not thinking of the 1916 election. Anyway, the point remains: there was a plan to get a president-elect in early, when world events seemed to warrant it. 1916 seems better to me now, because the Inauguration wasn’t until March back then. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/36 "2015-07-04T15:46:56Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > … there was a plan to get a president-elect in early, when world events seemed to warrant it. There has not been, in 1916 or 1940 or ever, any such plan. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/37 "2015-07-04T17:06:18Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > I think the OP makes some assumptions that just refusing to be dragged out of the Oval Office constitutes “holding onto the Presidency.” As most of the answers make clear, the office is not a desk, a room, a building or even a city. President Sanders could just take charge from the Vermont White House. Exactly. The new president would have power regardless of where he is. The old president wouldn’t have power regardless of where he is. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/38 "2015-07-04T21:09:33Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > I would bet it’s so closely aligned that there’s an audible “click” all over DC at the moment the new Prez says “…God.” > > Unless it happens at precisely noon on January 20th, regardless of whether formalities like the oath have been concluded. Happens precisely at noon, oath or no oath. This happened rather conspicuously in 2009 on Obama’s first inauguration day. The ceremonies were running at least an hour late or so, and the oath didn’t happen until an hour (or more?) after noon. At exactly noon (Washington time), the TV news announcers made it a point to tell us all that Obama just became President. (ETA: The fact that Chief Justice Roberts also muffed the oath was entirely separate from that. Everyone wanted to speculate on whether that made the oath invalid and whether that meant Obama didn’t really have Presidential authority. I don’t know that _anyone_ was seriously worried about that. Nevertheless, the oath ritual was repeated, privately, later that night. Just to be sure or something //roll-eyes// ) ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/39 "2015-07-04T21:27:09Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > (ETA: The fact that Chief Justice Roberts also muffed the oath was entirely separate from that. Everyone wanted to speculate on whether that made the oath invalid and whether that meant Obama didn’t really have Presidential authority. I don’t know that _anyone_ was seriously worried about that. Nevertheless, the oath ritual was repeated, privately, later that night. Just to be sure or something //roll-eyes// ) The president-elect becomes president immediately at noon, but the Constitution does require that he take the oath “Before he enter on the Execution of his Office.” So while _becoming_ president is automatic, it’s generally agreed that the president needs to take the oath before actually executing any presidential powers. But it’s a largely academic question. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/40 "2015-07-04T22:03:06Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > You can’t be impeached if you don’t actually hold an office. There is nothing to stop Congress from impeaching an ex-president. There wouldn’t be any “removal from office”, since he’s already removed from office, but that’s a separate step. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166.md?page=3)