# What would happen if a president really did refuse to give up the presidency? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 3, 2015, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166 "2015-07-03T21:26:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/41 "2015-07-04T22:06:27Z")
> [@Kenm](#): > > I expected Reagan to bump off a senator and appoint his horse. That would have been an improvement regardless of which Senator you are talking about. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/42 "2015-07-04T23:04:13Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > I agree they could certainly bar and/or remove him from the Oval Office. But I wonder if they would have to go through the housing courts in order to remove him and the Former First family from the Residence. Most jurisdictions have pretty tenant friendly laws regarding tenancy and eviction and it’s hard to just throw someone out of an apartment the’ve lived in for 8 years regardless of the terms and conditions of their residency. > … > [@Loach](#): > > What is the eviction process in D.C? In my state it would take over a month to get the family out of the house. He still wouldn’t be president of course. The President isn’t a tenant who holds a lease on the property. He’s an invited guest of the Federal gov’t which graciously permits he & his family to sleep there. Not much different from when a military member is assigned quarters on base. When the owner of the property says it’s time for a now-unwelcome guest to move, well, it’s time for the guest to move. Perhaps with a motivational assist from the Sheriff. Or in the Fed’s case, from the Secret Service. ---
**Author:** ![Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e47c2d/32.png) [@Hershele\_Ostropoler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hershele_Ostropoler)\ **Post date:** [July 4, 2015, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/43 "2015-07-04T23:41:34Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > That would have been an improvement regardless of which Senator you are talking about. 😛 Depends on which horse. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/44 "2015-07-05T00:10:44Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > The President isn’t a tenant who holds a lease on the property. He’s an invited guest of the Federal gov’t which graciously permits he & his family to sleep there. Not much different from when a military member is assigned quarters on base. > > When the owner of the property says it’s time for a now-unwelcome guest to move, well, it’s time for the guest to move. Perhaps with a motivational assist from the Sheriff. Or in the Fed’s case, from the Secret Service. Where I live ( New York City ) - if you stay as a houseguest for 30 days or more you are treated as a tenant - even if you aren’t paying rent - and can’t be removed without due process. I’m not sure what the laws in DC are but housing laws in general are pretty tenant- friendly ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/45 "2015-07-05T00:32:23Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > Where I live ( New York City ) - if you stay as a houseguest for 30 days or more you are treated as a tenant - even if you aren’t paying rent - and can’t be removed without due process. I’m not sure what the laws in DC are but housing laws in general are pretty tenant- friendly I learn something every day. Thank you. I had thought stories like that were UL. I need to make sure I understand the rules around here; the area has enough NYers that it may have picked up some of the same laws. I’m a Progressive, but laws like that boggle my mind. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/46 "2015-07-05T01:45:13Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > There has not been, in 1916 or 1940 or ever, any such plan. Sorry **Frank,** I’m right; you’re wrong. [http://blogs.usyd.edu.au/theoryandpractice/2013/10/if\_woodrow\_wilson\_had\_lost\_the.html](http://blogs.usyd.edu.au/theoryandpractice/2013/10/if_woodrow_wilson_had_lost_the.html) It wasn’t Speaker, Wilson would have made Hughes Secretary of State. And it was 1916, not 1940, when the presidential lame duck period was 4 months long. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/47 "2015-07-05T02:15:09Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Sorry **Frank,** I’m right; you’re wrong. > > [http://blogs.usyd.edu.au/theoryandpractice/2013/10/if\_woodrow\_wilson\_had\_lost\_the.html](http://blogs.usyd.edu.au/theoryandpractice/2013/10/if_woodrow_wilson_had_lost_the.html) > > It wasn’t Speaker, Wilson would have made Hughes Secretary of State. And it was 1916, not 1940, when the presidential lame duck period was 4 months long. A blog post from an Australian university describing Wilson’s secret plan is your cite? Seriously? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/48 "2015-07-05T02:29:19Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > There is nothing to stop Congress from impeaching an ex-president. There wouldn’t be any “removal from office”, since he’s already removed from office, but that’s a separate step. But since removing him from office is the only penalty they can impose…what conceivable point would there be? This goes back to the origin of the Move On organization. Since Clinton’s impeachment could not conceivably lead to a conviction in the Senate, the impeachment had no more real effect than a censure, why not just censure and move on? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/49 "2015-07-05T02:39:10Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > It wasn’t Speaker, Wilson would have made Hughes Secretary of State. And it was 1916, not 1940, when the presidential lame duck period was 4 months long. OK, this appears to trace back to the posthumously published autobiography of Robert Lansing, the Secretary of State at the time. It is claimed that Wilson gave the plan to Lansing in a sealed envelope, and that the only people who knew about it were Wilson, Mrs. Wilson, and Lansing. I don’t know whether to believe it or not. This is, after all, a president who didn’t resign when he’d had a stroke and was incapable of performing his duties. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/50 "2015-07-05T03:42:59Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > The President isn’t a tenant who holds a lease on the property. He’s an invited guest of the Federal gov’t which graciously permits he & his family to sleep there. Not much different from when a military member is assigned quarters on base. > > When the owner of the property says it’s time for a now-unwelcome guest to move, well, it’s time for the guest to move. Perhaps with a motivational assist from the Sheriff. Or in the Fed’s case, from the Secret Service. > [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > Where I live ( New York City ) - if you stay as a houseguest for 30 days or more you are treated as a tenant - even if you aren’t paying rent - and can’t be removed without due process. I’m not sure what the laws in DC are but housing laws in general are pretty tenant- friendly Same here in New Jersey only there isn’t a time limit. If you establish residency you may need to be formally evicted. There are some grey areas that I won’t go into but certainly if you have been living in a house for 8 years you would need to be evicted through the court. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/51 "2015-07-05T04:40:20Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > I think the OP makes some assumptions that just refusing to be dragged out of the Oval Office constitutes “holding onto the Presidency.” As most of the answers make clear, the office is not a desk, a room, a building or even a city. President Sanders could just take charge from the Vermont White House. > > ETA: As long as none of the flags there have gold fringes. That would change _everything_. Just because President Sanders was elected doesn’t mean that he’s \*my \*President. President Underwood speaks for me. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/52 "2015-07-05T13:50:05Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > But since removing him from office is the only penalty they can impose…what conceivable point would there be? > > This goes back to the origin of the Move On organization. Since Clinton’s impeachment could not conceivably lead to a conviction in the Senate, the impeachment had no more real effect than a censure, why not just censure and move on? A censure merely expresses disapproval. An impeachment imposes not only removal from office, but “…disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust or profit under the United States.” It’s true that former Presidents do not typically seek elective or appointed federal office subsequent to their terms, but it’s not unprecedented. William Howard Taft accepted an appointment to the Supreme Court following his service as President. John Quincy Adams and Andrew Johnson both served in Congress after their presidencies. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/53 "2015-07-05T13:55:21Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Same here in New Jersey only there isn’t a time limit. If you establish residency you may need to be formally evicted. There are some grey areas that I won’t go into but certainly if you have been living in a house for 8 years you would need to be evicted through the court. I’m sure the Patriot Act takes precedence over housing laws when it comes to removing unwanted persons from a top-secret Federal facility. I bet the “President” might find himself in Gitmo if he pushed too hard. ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/54 "2015-07-05T14:09:33Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > people were saying the same thing near the end of Clinton’s second term. I just write it off as noise anymore. > [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Of course it’s only the Dems that would consider seizing the empire. There were similar rumblings towards the end of the Bush II administration. ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [July 5, 2015, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/55 "2015-07-05T14:49:28Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Same here in New Jersey only there isn’t a time limit. If you establish residency you may need to be formally evicted. There are some grey areas that I won’t go into but certainly if you have been living in a house for 8 years you would need to be evicted through the court. The jurisdiction over the white house would be federal. Local state laws wouldn’t matter. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/56 "2015-07-06T00:54:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > A censure merely expresses disapproval. An impeachment imposes not only removal from office, but “…disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust or profit under the United States.” . . . Ah! Super point. That would put some meaning back into the action. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/57 "2015-07-06T01:02:34Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Ah! Super point. That would put some meaning back into the action. But the disqualification is optional. The Senate can choose to convict but not disqualify, which is why Alcee Hastings is allowed to be a congressman even though he was impeached and convicted when he was a federal judge. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/58 "2015-07-06T01:46:27Z")
But without the disqualification…and given the guy isn’t actually in office…the impeachment would have no point, and we’d be back where we started. A motion (or bill) to censure would have the same real effect. Anybody remember National Lampoon’s “Missing White House Tapes” and the Swearing-Out Ceremony (purportedly following Richard Nixon’s impeachment?) Now that’s a declaration of disregard! ---
**Author:** ![Habeed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a587f6/32.png) [@Habeed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Habeed)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/59 "2015-07-06T03:29:44Z")
Why would it need to go this far, anyway? It doesn’t take an act of Congress to throw a bum or a fired federal employee out of a federal building does it? The former president no longer lives or works there - his contract ended. Security can go ahead and escort him out. If it comes down to it, the secret service can frog-march the former president to the curb and eject him from the white house property. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2015, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166/60 "2015-07-06T05:20:38Z")
Not in the OP’s idea of a greedy President just flat holding on. However I see 2 scenario’s where it would work: 1. When a major national crisis has occurred right before election day in November and the president declares martial law and the president with support of congress, orders the election postponed until the crisis is over. Who says when the “crisis” is over? 2. There is a widely held view that the election results were tampered with and the issue going to the supreme court and the judges agreeing and therefore annulling the election and their be calls for a new election (this almost happened in 2000 in Florida). This could be drug out for a long time. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-a-president-really-did-refuse-to-give-up-the-presidency/724166.md?page=4)