# What would happen if Palestinians were declared to be Israeli citizens? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 22, 2006, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-palestinians-were-declared-to-be-israeli-citizens/349464 "2006-03-22T18:41:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-palestinians-were-declared-to-be-israeli-citizens/349464/21 "2006-03-26T14:55:46Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I don’t think the OP understands the absurdity of the sugestion. Look at it this way: you have two people who absolutely loathe each other locked in a bitter, acrimonious property dispute. Your offer is that they _get married and move in together_. Sure, that’s solve all our problems! Sure. The loving couple will kill each other inside of a month, and that’ll solve all their **neighbors’** problems! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2006, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-palestinians-were-declared-to-be-israeli-citizens/349464/22 "2006-03-26T23:32:39Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Jewish Israelis are naturally fearful that the nation would be held to account for its crimes, if the people it subjugates were given a voice in government. How would that work? If the Palestinians are now part of “the nation”? Perhaps the richer (formerly Israeli) parts of the combined state would be taxed to subsidize economic development in the former OTs – but would that be such a bad thing? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2006, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-palestinians-were-declared-to-be-israeli-citizens/349464/23 "2006-03-27T04:16:09Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > How would that work? If the Palestinians are now part of “the nation”? Perhaps the richer (formerly Israeli) parts of the combined state would be taxed to subsidize economic development in the former OTs – but would that be such a bad thing? Not from your POV. But from the POV of those who hate and recoil from justice, it is a worst case. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2006, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-palestinians-were-declared-to-be-israeli-citizens/349464/24 "2006-03-27T04:31:48Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Not from your POV. But from the POV of those who hate and recoil from justice, it is a worst case. That’s hardly the worst case scenario. In fact, should a single state happen, that would probably be the best-case scenario, and I, for one, would be really pleasantly suprised. The worst case scenario is that the Palestinians do what they’ve said they’re planning on doing and kill off the Jews. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2006, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-palestinians-were-declared-to-be-israeli-citizens/349464/25 "2006-03-27T23:52:14Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Sure. The loving couple will kill each other inside of a month, and that’ll solve all their **neighbors’** problems! 😉 I’m mostly okay with this. As long as the tribal racist psycho elements are only killing other tribal racist psychos, let 'em. Of course, we’ll have to offer asylum to the non-psycho elements of both populations. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2006, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-palestinians-were-declared-to-be-israeli-citizens/349464/26 "2006-03-28T14:22:10Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > That’s hardly the worst case scenario. In fact, should a single state happen, that would probably be the best-case scenario, and I, for one, would be really pleasantly suprised. Me too. > [@Captain Amazing](#): > > The worst case scenario is that the Palestinians do what they’ve said they’re planning on doing and kill off the Jews. That is an extraordinary claim. Do you have extraordinary evidence to substantiate it? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-palestinians-were-declared-to-be-israeli-citizens/349464/27 "2006-03-29T06:39:31Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > That is an extraordinary claim. Do you have extraordinary evidence to substantiate it? From the Hamas Covenant: [http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/hamas.htm](http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/hamas.htm) > [@](#): > > Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it" (The Martyr, Imam Hassan al-Banna, of blessed memory). > [@](#): > > Moreover, if the links have been distant from each other and if obstacles, placed by those who are the lackeys of Zionism in the way of the fighters obstructed the continuation of the struggle, the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah’s promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: “The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). > [@](#): > > As for the objectives: They [Hamas] are the fighting against the false, defeating it and vanquishing it so that justice could prevail, homelands be retrieved and from its mosques would the voice of the mu’azen emerge declaring the establishment of the state of Islam, so that people and things would return each to their right places and Allah is our helper. > [@](#): > > The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day? From the PLO Charter of 1968: [http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/plocha~1.htm](http://www.library.cornell.edu/colldev/mideast/plocha~1.htm) > [@](#): > > Article 15: The liberation of Palestine, from an Arab viewpoint, is a national (qawmi) duty and it attempts to repel the Zionist and imperialist aggression against the Arab homeland, and aims at the elimination of Zionism in Palestine. Absolute responsibility for this falls upon the Arab nation - peoples and governments - with the Arab people of Palestine in the vanguard. Accordingly, the Arab nation must mobilize all its military, human, moral, and spiritual capabilities to participate actively with the Palestinian people in the liberation of Palestine. It must, particularly in the phase of the armed Palestinian revolution, offer and furnish the Palestinian people with all possible help, and material and human support, and make available to them the means and opportunities that will enable them to continue to carry out their leading role in the armed revolution, until they liberate their homeland. > [@](#): > > Article 20: The Balfour Declaration, the Mandate for Palestine, and everything that has been based upon them, are deemed null and void. Claims of historical or religious ties of Jews with Palestine are incompatible with the facts of history and the true conception of what constitutes statehood. Judaism, being a religion, is not an independent nationality. Nor do Jews constitute a single nation with an identity of its own; they are citizens of the states to which they belong. > [@](#): > > Article 22: Zionism is a political movement organically associated with international imperialism and antagonistic to all action for liberation and to progressive movements in the world. It is racist and fanatic in its nature, aggressive, expansionist, and colonial in its aims, and fascist in its methods. Israel is the instrument of the Zionist movement, and geographical base for world imperialism placed strategically in the midst of the Arab homeland to combat the hopes of the Arab nation for liberation, unity, and progress. Israel is a constant source of threat vis-a-vispeace in the Middle East and the whole world. Since the liberation of Palestine will destroy the Zionist and imperialist presence and will contribute to the establishment of peace in the Middle East, the Palestinian people look for the support of all the progressive and peaceful forces and urge them all, irrespective of their affiliations and beliefs, to offer the Palestinian people all aid and support in their just struggle for the liberation of their homeland. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-palestinians-were-declared-to-be-israeli-citizens/349464/28 "2006-03-29T07:47:01Z")
None of the quoted material states “kill off the Jews.” The nearest thing from Hamas is: > [@](#): > > The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: “The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.” (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem). That is a Koranic verse that is included to comfort Hamas that it will succeed in its armed struggle against Israel. Even given a sinister interpretation, that interpretation nonetheless fails to rise to the level of extraordinary evidence for the claim. To reiterate, the first interpretation is better. This conclusion is compelled by other material in the Covenant: > [@](#): > > Our attitude towards … F. Followers of Other Religions: > … > Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other. This is not compatible with the view that the Covenant envisages killing all the Jews. Moreover, the status of the Covenant is questionable. There is nothing to suggest it has any particular status or weight, or indeed that it is a document endorsed by Hamas. None of the other material suggests “kill off the Jews.” Consequently, there is no evidence commensurate with the extraordinary claim that has been made. There is a second basis for the claim requiring extraordinary evidence. As a cursory research of ‘Hamas’ and the ‘PlO’ shows, there is a large industry of demonizing the Palestinian people. Given the effort to distort the facts, the necessity for extraordinary evidence is apparent. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-palestinians-were-declared-to-be-israeli-citizens/349464/29 "2006-03-29T14:09:29Z")
Nor does Hamas equal “the Palestinians,” for the matter of that. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-palestinians-were-declared-to-be-israeli-citizens/349464/30 "2006-03-29T17:19:32Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > None of the quoted material states “kill off the Jews.” That would be this part: > [@](#): > > It must, particularly in the phase of the armed Palestinian revolution, offer and furnish the Palestinian people with all possible help, and material and human support, and make available to them the means and opportunities that will enable them to continue to carry out their leading role in the armed revolution, until they liberate their homeland. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-palestinians-were-declared-to-be-israeli-citizens/349464/31 "2006-03-29T17:27:40Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > That would be this part: > Regards, > Shodan “Armed revolution” != genocide. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-palestinians-were-declared-to-be-israeli-citizens/349464/32 "2006-03-29T18:36:44Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > “Armed revolution” != genocide. No, but if (and this is all taken from the PLO charter) > [@](#): > > Article 1: Palestine is the homeland of the Arab Palestinian people; it is an indivisible part of the Arab homeland, and the Palestinian people are an integral part of the Arab nation. and > [@](#): > > Article 2: Palestine, with the boundaries it had during the British Mandate, is an indivisible territorial unit. and > [@](#): > > Article 3: The Palestinian Arab people possess the legal right to their homeland and have the right to determine their destiny after achieving the liberation of their country in accordance with their wishes and entirely of their own accord and will. and if further: Article 6: The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion [i.e. before the “First Aliyah”, the first wave of Zionist settlement in Palestine] will be considered Palestinians. [/quote] then that means that the Jews who came to Palestine/Israel during the first aliyah and afterwards, and their descendents, are not considered Palestinian by the PLO, and don’t have “the right to determine their destiny in accordance with their wishes and entirely of their own accord and will” within the future Palestinian state, which would, pursuant to Article 2, consist of the entirety of Mandate Palestine. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-palestinians-were-declared-to-be-israeli-citizens/349464/33 "2006-03-29T19:07:45Z")
What would happen if America declared Mexicans to be American citizens? What would happen if Ethiopia declared Eritreans to be Ethiopian citizens? What would happen if Indonesia declared East Timorese to be Indonesian citizens? What would happen if France declared Algerians to be French citizens? What would happen if Turkey declared Greeks to be Turkish citizens? What would happen if Russia declared Ukrainians to be Russian citizens? What would happen if India declared Pakistanis to be Indian citizens? What would happen if Serbia declared Bosnians to be Serbian citizens? What would happen if Great Britain declared Irish to be British citizens? What would happen if Germany declared Austrians to be German citizens? What would happen if… ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-palestinians-were-declared-to-be-israeli-citizens/349464/34 "2006-03-29T19:16:56Z")
Your point being? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-palestinians-were-declared-to-be-israeli-citizens/349464/35 "2006-03-29T19:48:51Z")
Mexicans don’t want Mexico to be annexed by the USA. Americans don’t want Mexico to be annexed by the USA. So proposing that America should annex Mexico is kind of foolish. Palestinians don’t want the West Bank and Gaza to be annexed by Israel. Israel doesn’t want the West Bank and Gaza to be annexed by Israel (yes I know some actually do, but a small minority, and those that do advocate either ethnic cleansing or second class citizenship for Palestinians). So proposing that Israel should annex Palestine is kind of foolish. It won’t stop the conflict, it just redefines it, like calling a tail a leg. Israel can’t just ignore the fact that a majority of its putative citizens would be violently opposed to political union. And by violently opposed, I mean, willing to use violence. You think just because Israel is democratic that would stop the violence? Post-colonial India was democratic, yet Pakistan declared that they were not part of India and didn’t want Indian citizenship, and fought a war of independence against democratic India, all to set themselves up as an independent non-democratic state. So much for democracy curing all ills. ---
**Author:** ![Sal\_Ammoniac](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8dc957/32.png) [@Sal\_Ammoniac](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sal_Ammoniac)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-palestinians-were-declared-to-be-israeli-citizens/349464/36 "2006-03-29T19:58:31Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Mexicans don’t want Mexico to be annexed by the USA. Americans don’t want Mexico to be annexed by the USA. So proposing that America should annex Mexico is kind of foolish. > > Palestinians don’t want the West Bank and Gaza to be annexed by Israel. Israel doesn’t want the West Bank and Gaza to be annexed by Israel (yes I know some actually do, but a small minority, and those that do advocate either ethnic cleansing or second class citizenship for Palestinians). So proposing that Israel should annex Palestine is kind of foolish. The Mexico analogy is useless, because Mexico is a recognized state, and its occupants are citizens of the Mexican state. Nor does the U.S. exercise effective sovereignty over Mexican territory. Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, on the other hand, are stateless, citizens of nothing, and Israel does exercise effective sovereignty. Even Gaza, which Israel supposedly evacuated, continues to be constrained by Israel’s wishes. As to whether the Palestinians want to be annexed to Israel – well, how can you say, since they’ve never been asked? That’s the misfortune of not having any voting rights, no? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2006, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-palestinians-were-declared-to-be-israeli-citizens/349464/37 "2006-03-29T23:19:59Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > No, but if (and this is all taken from the PLO charter)… In summary: > [@Sevastopol](#): > > Do you have extraordinary evidence to substantiate [the claim that Palestinians are planning to kill off the Jews]? No. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2006, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-palestinians-were-declared-to-be-israeli-citizens/349464/38 "2006-03-30T00:19:20Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > In summary: No. You’ve made it very clear in past discussions that you will reflexively take the pro-Palestinian side and the anti-Israeli side in all such discussions, and further, that you refuse to consider any evidence that paints the Palestinians or Palestinian groups in a less than positive light. In fact, I have linked you to the charter documents of the two largest Palestinian political organizations, both of which seek the destruction of the State of Israel and the establishment of a Palestinian state wherein there is no place for the Jews. If I needed to, I could also show you the anti-Semitism that flourishes both among the Palestinians and in the Arab world as a whole. I could show you that just recently Egyptian state television broadcast a drama based on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and that Jews are not, with certain very rare exceptions, given visas to enter the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. I could show you Palestinian schoolbooks that paint Jews in a negative light, include maps that do not name the the State of Israel or show Israeli cities established by the Jews, like Tel Aviv, or even mention that Jews lived in Jerusalem prior to the establishment of Israel or that the Temple in Jerusalem was a Jewish holy site. I could also point out to you the numerous attacks against Israeli civilians, not only in the Occupied Territories, but in Israel proper, such attacks not respecting social status, political beliefs, sex, or even age. All of these facts and more, I could use to show you that Israel, and Israeli Jews have good reason to doubt the willingness of many Palestinians to live at peace with them. But even if I did present this information, would you even consider the evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2006, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-palestinians-were-declared-to-be-israeli-citizens/349464/39 "2006-03-30T00:27:12Z")
> [@Sal Ammoniac](#): > > Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, on the other hand, are stateless, citizens of nothing, and Israel does exercise effective sovereignty. They’re citizens of Jordan. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2006, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-palestinians-were-declared-to-be-israeli-citizens/349464/40 "2006-03-30T00:46:40Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > They’re citizens of Jordan. I don’t think so. I think Jordan washed its hands of them years ago, and renounced all claim to the territory. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-palestinians-were-declared-to-be-israeli-citizens/349464.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-palestinians-were-declared-to-be-israeli-citizens/349464.md?page=3)