# What would happen if the birthers turned out to be right about Obama? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 20, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544 "2012-05-20T21:05:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/21 "2012-05-21T03:22:22Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If not (i.e. as far as he knew, he was a born U.S. citizen but evidence came forth that he was actually born outside the U.S.). The only possible way I can see that Obama is declared to not be a natural born citizen\* is not only was he born outside the USA, but also that his mother was not actually his real mother too. \*According to every sane and mainstream legal scholar’s opinion natural born citizen simply means someone who was a citizen from birth and did not naturalize. I realize some people claim the term means other things like both parents and even grandparents being NBCs too in addition to being born on USA soil, and that there has never been a specific ruling on what NBC means. However I will go with the consensus of modern legal experts, and I don’t wish to debate it. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/22 "2012-05-21T03:45:26Z")
> [@grude](#): > > The only possible way I can see that Obama is declared to not be a natural born citizen\* is not only was he born outside the USA, but also that his mother was not actually his real mother too. Well, I’m assuming for the sake of the hypothetical that regardless of the exact formula, he is found to have been ineligible. Heck, assume it turns out that he was only 34 years old when elected, if it matters. ---
**Author:** ![Giles](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giles/32/60_2.png) [@Giles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giles)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/23 "2012-05-21T03:48:32Z")
> [@grude](#): > > The only possible way I can see that Obama is declared to not be a natural born citizen\* is not only was he born outside the USA, but also that his mother was not actually his real mother too. We’ve discussed this before, but if Barack Obama had been born outside the United States and if his mother was married at the time to Barack Obama’s father, then Barack Obama would not be a citizen. Ann Dunham was 18 years old at the time, and so could not have lived in the U.S. for 5 years after her 14th birthday, as required by the law at that time. (It would be different if she had not been married, since the law would only have required 1 year’s residence – and you could argue that she was not married, since Barack Obama Senior had married her bigamously.) But if you want to avoid these hypotheticals, you could discuss the case of Chester Arthur. If he had been born in Canada or in Ireland, what should the Congress or the Supreme Court have done about it during his tenure as President? That gets away from present-day partisan issues. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/24 "2012-05-21T04:48:20Z")
> [@Giles](#): > > Ann Dunham was 18 years old at the time, and so could not have lived in the U.S. for 5 years after her 14th birthday, as required by the law at that time. (It would be different if she had not been married, since the law would only have required 1 year’s residence – and you could argue that she was not married, since Barack Obama Senior had married her bigamously.) There is apart from the bigamy issue a question whether of whether she was ever legally married to Obama’s father at all, which Obama himself admitted in his book Dreams Of My Father. I can assume this would all have to straightened out before any removal from office could occur. > [@](#): > > Obama’s African family is particularly complicated. By his own account, his father never really left Kezia, his first wife, in Kenya. She bore Obama Sr two children, Roy and Auma, who now works in social services in Berkshire. > > They were separated, Obama’s mother claimed, but “it was a village wedding and there was no document that could suggest a divorce”. > > His own father and mother’s wedding in Hawaii may not have been properly documented either. “How and when the marriage occurred remains a bit murky, a bill of particulars that I have never quite had the courage to explore,” Obama writes in his memoir. [http://muslimmedianetwork.com/mmn/?p=686](http://muslimmedianetwork.com/mmn/?p=686) ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/25 "2012-05-21T05:58:53Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > My guess is that every bill he signed into law would be undone. And THAT could cause a nightmare. But I don’t see any way around it really. Even putting aside **Lord Feldon** ’s point, that really wouldn’t happen. You can’t unscramble an egg, and saying that every law passed up to that point is null and void would be way too chaotic. What about budgets? Does all the money the US spent have to be returned since the US didn’t have authorization to spend it? Obama signed some tax cuts. Does the IRS send letters to everyone saying “Sorry, guys, those tax cuts never happened. You owe us X.” Obama gave the order to kill Osama bin Laden. Do we use necromancy to resurrect him? It’s just not possible to do what you’re suggesting. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/26 "2012-05-21T13:40:48Z")
Once sworn in the only way to remove a sitting President would be through impeachment. (And certain tricks with the 25th Amendment.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/27 "2012-05-21T13:48:23Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Someone would sue and it would make its way through the courts until the SCOTUS decided. At that, who has standing to sue? McCain? Biden? Any voter? Any member of the armed forces? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/28 "2012-05-21T14:32:33Z")
To pose a more realistic question: what happens when Biden is discovered to be a cyborg? ---
**Author:** ![Gagundathar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Gagundathar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gagundathar)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/29 "2012-05-21T14:37:25Z")
I have often suspected that Mr. Biden is a cyborg. A poorly programmed one, at that. A real cyborg would ‘stay on message’ and not ‘leave the farm’. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/30 "2012-05-21T14:37:27Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > To pose a more realistic question: what happens when Biden is discovered to be a cyborg? Was he built here? ---
**Author:** ![GoodOmens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@GoodOmens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GoodOmens)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/31 "2012-05-21T14:51:24Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > If he’s found to have deliberately concealed his ineligibility, remove him on that basis, i.e. fraud. If not (i.e. as far as he knew, he was a born U.S. citizen but evidence came forth that he was actually born outside the U.S.), let him serve out his term though he would obviously not be eligible to run for another. I think that his knowledge or lack thereof would be critical in the process. If he knowingly violated the Constitution, I would expect not just impeachment but some sort of further charges (fraud? conspiracy? impersonating a government official?). A further snag…if he’s removed, presumably Biden gets the presidency. But it could be argued that Biden is only vice president because of the illegal election of Obama. Heck, Biden would likely have to have been complicit in the conspiracy. Therefore, I could see an issue arising where the SCOTUS might argue that Biden is not legally vice-president. I suppose then Boehner is put in office. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/32 "2012-05-21T15:04:14Z")
> [@Interrobang](#): > > I think that his knowledge or lack thereof would be critical in the process. If he knowingly violated the Constitution, I would expect not just impeachment but some sort of further charges (fraud? conspiracy? impersonating a government official?). > > A further snag…if he’s removed, presumably Biden gets the presidency. But it could be argued that Biden is only vice president because of the illegal election of Obama. Heck, Biden would likely have to have been complicit in the conspiracy. Therefore, I could see an issue arising where the SCOTUS might argue that Biden is not legally vice-president. I suppose then Boehner is put in office. Congress would have to impeach Biden and remove him from office. With the Dems in control of the Senate, even if the House did impeach, unless they really had a case, the Senate wouldn’t convict. ---
**Author:** ![Simplicio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c37758/32.png) [@Simplicio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simplicio)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/33 "2012-05-21T15:20:58Z")
> [@Interrobang](#): > > A further snag…if he’s removed, presumably Biden gets the presidency. But it could be argued that Biden is only vice president because of the illegal election of Obama. Heck, Biden would likely have to have been complicit in the conspiracy. Therefore, I could see an issue arising where the SCOTUS might argue that Biden is not legally vice-president. I suppose then Boehner is put in office. Biden is VP because he was elected as such by the Electoral College. Legally his election had nothing to do with Obama, and I can’t imagine the SCOTUS would find otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/34 "2012-05-21T15:24:56Z")
> [@Interrobang](#): > > A further snag…if he’s removed, presumably Biden gets the presidency. But it could be argued that Biden is only vice president because of the illegal election of Obama. Heck, Biden would likely have to have been complicit in the conspiracy. Well, complicity issues aside, aren’t the President and Vice-President technically elected separately by the Electoral College, in ostensibly independent votes? The Democrats nominated Obama as President and Biden as Vice-President, not Obama-Biden as single “Presidential unit”, in contrast to how their names appear on the ballots given to the general public. ETA:Well, I see Simplico got in before me, but as an afterthought, wouldn’t changing the system to allow direct election of the president also require direct election of the vice-president? There _are_ separate offices, after all, with distinct duties. Thus, the U.S. could end up with a Pres and Veep of different parties. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/35 "2012-05-21T16:50:10Z")
If Obama were found to not be eligible to have served as president, his acts as president up until now would not be void. There are only two methods for removing him as President. He can be impeached by the House and convicted by the Senate, and if he committed fraud of some kind or another he could be prosecuted separately, since impeachment can only remove him from office. Or by the 25th Amendment, Section 4: > [@](#): > > Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President. However, this doesn’t remove the president from office, it merely allows the Vice-President to act as Acting President, the President can resume his duties whenever he can get 1/3 of Congress to not vote that he’s unable to discharge his duties. If Obama were removed from office, Biden would become President. If you wanted to remove him, you’d have to go the exact same route with the new president separately–impeachment, via the 25th Amendment. If you really wanted Biden out too, it would probably best to first impeach him, get a new Vice President, then impeach Obama so the new Vice President takes over seamlessly. The notion that, because he was ineligible to be president, that every act he did as president would be void, is simply nonsense. If we wanted to undo his acts the new President and Congress would have to explicitly repeal them with new legislation. To remove his appointees would require impeachment, or, in the case of at-will appointees like Cabinet members, the new President can choose whoever he likes, subject to the advise and consent of the Senate. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/36 "2012-05-21T19:35:04Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > If you really wanted Biden out too, it would probably best to first impeach him, get a new Vice President, then impeach Obama so the new Vice President takes over seamlessly. That has the disadvantage (depending on your point of view) of letting Obama pick the next President, as long as the Dems control the Senate. If the GOP controlled it, Obama could spin it out for a while. In that case, it might be better to impeach them both, get rid of them both, and then have the Speaker take over fresh. You would probably have to have separate trials, although maybe you could impeach the whole freaking Cabinet under the RICO Act. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/37 "2012-05-21T19:40:44Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > In that case, it might be better to impeach them both, get rid of them both, and then have the Speaker take over fresh. You would probably have to have separate trials, although maybe you could impeach the whole freaking Cabinet under the RICO Act. Impeaching Biden, a duly elected official, for no other reason than that he isn’t a Republican would tear this country apart. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/38 "2012-05-21T19:52:04Z")
You might want to actually read the thread before you respond. Pay particular attention to post #31. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/39 "2012-05-21T19:59:35Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You might want to actually read the thread before you respond. Pay particular attention to post #31. > > Regards, > Shodan You might to read posts other than the ones that you agree with, like #33(among others making the same point). Biden was duly elected-there is NO case for fraud or deception concerning his \* separate\* election via the Electoral College. ---
**Author:** ![mlees](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@mlees](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mlees)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/40 "2012-05-21T20:00:51Z")
If such an event were to occur (the removal of President Obama and the nullification of his use of his Presidential powers), could President Biden theoretically sign an executive order that reimplements the laws and stuff in one fell swoop [document], and making them retroactive to the dates Obama signed them? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544.md?page=3)