# What would happen if the birthers turned out to be right about Obama? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 20, 2012, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544 "2012-05-20T21:05:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/41 "2012-05-21T21:17:48Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You might to read posts other than the ones that you agree with, like #33(among others making the same point). Biden was duly elected-there is NO case for fraud or deception concerning his \* separate\* election via the Electoral College. Post #31 mentions Biden’s supposed conspiracy in Obama’s election, not his own. IOW that Biden knew that Obama was not eligible to be President, but conspired with him to cover up documents or something similar. The part about getting him out because he isn’t a Republican is something you made up. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/42 "2012-05-21T21:18:59Z")
There would be no need to do any such thing. The laws signed and orders given by Obama would remain law. It would not be the case that Obama had never been the president, rather that Obama had improperly been the president. His use of presidential powers would not be nullified. That would be silly. He has been duly sworn in as President, and his future removal from office, if it even took place, would not change that. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2012, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/43 "2012-05-21T23:48:07Z")
I personally believe, the result is Civil War part deux Just like there is no way to convince the Birthers that Obama is legit, there is no way no how that “Certain Groups” or at least subsets of these groups will ever be convinced that that "proof " is true. Add that tension to the Occupy mindset, plus the “Right” will take advantage of this situation and riots will explode all over the country. Deaths will occur and the spiral begins. Think of the beginning of the Spanish Civil War only much nastier. I don’t mean this as a slam towards any group I have mentioned, I just believe that there is no way the first AA President gets impeached, in this political environment, and it turns out well. To be honest the “Proof”, I am going to have a hard time believing, you know it would be awfully “convenient” for someone to have found out now:dubious: Cheers all Capt ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/44 "2012-05-22T00:02:34Z")
> [@voltaire](#): > > I disagree. Your Arnold example is hardly apt because, barring an amendment, he would never have been allowed to be elected and sworn in. Obama was elected and he was sworn in, and that makes a huge difference. > > The time for anyone to challenge Obama’s eligibility was before he was elected, and certainly before he was sworn in. After that, done deal. Once the will of the electorate is ratified, “possession” (yeah, scary quotes) of the office is 9/10th’s of the law. > > On a practical level, to do as you suggest would just be insanity. It would be like cutting off your face to spite your nose. I’d like to think that the SC would be more pragmatic than that. 1. You are wrong about the done deal aspect. Will of electorate being ‘ratified’ is not a legal concept, when it contradicts the Constitution. 2. Eligibility can be challenged at any time. What makes you think it can’t? The nation is governed by the Constitution, not ‘the will of the electorate.’ He would be canned, and the laws that he signed would not be undone. ---
**Author:** ![handsomeharry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e9c0ed/32.png) [@handsomeharry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/handsomeharry)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/45 "2012-05-22T00:03:38Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > To be honest the “Proof”, I am going to have a hard time believing, you know it would be awfully “convenient” for someone to have found out now:dubious: > > Cheers all > Capt I think it was hypothetical. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/46 "2012-05-22T00:06:15Z")
> [@handsomeharry](#): > > I think it was hypothetical. Yeah I didn’t mean to hijack, just got thinking as I was reading. Sorry folks for my errant ways :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/47 "2012-05-22T07:51:34Z")
Well, there is precedent for at least one person who was nowhere near “natural born” to be the President of the United States, isn’t there ? Y’all even put him on Mt. Rushmore. Most probably a few Presidents after him as well, though I’m shaky on early American history so don’t ask me to name them 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![2sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/2/e47774/32.png) [@2sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/2sense)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 8:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/48 "2012-05-22T08:02:40Z")
Those who were here during the Revolution were grandfathered in. Martin Van Buren, the 8th POTUS, was the first born after Independence. ---
**Author:** ![GoodOmens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@GoodOmens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GoodOmens)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 10:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/49 "2012-05-22T10:54:42Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > You might want to actually read the thread before you respond. Pay particular attention to post #31. > > Regards, > Shodan Which was my (likely flawed) understanding of the laws surrounding the situation. I hypothesized that Biden would likely have been aware of Obama’s lack of eligibility. If, in this situation, it turned out that Biden was truly unaware and not complicit, I agree that there would be no reason to consider impeachment. However, it does seem staggeringly unlikely that the VP would be unaware if the President were ineligible for the office. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/50 "2012-05-22T10:55:15Z")
Precisely. So, if the Constitution as written can be circumvented out of expediency and people be retro-actively made natural born citizens in one instance, then it can be in others when also expedient - such as “when the guy has been acting President for 4 years already”. Can’t think of a better reason to give anyone honorary citizenship-with-all-the-trimmings, really 😉 ; and averting the confusion and chaos inherent in trying to retcon his presidency seems eminently expedient to me. ETA: that was a reply to **2sense** , naturally. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/51 "2012-05-22T11:59:40Z")
> [@Interrobang](#): > > Which was my (likely flawed) understanding of the laws surrounding the situation. I hypothesized that Biden would likely have been aware of Obama’s lack of eligibility. If, in this situation, it turned out that Biden was truly unaware and not complicit, I agree that there would be no reason to consider impeachment. However, it does seem staggeringly unlikely that the VP would be unaware if the President were ineligible for the office. Why? If this conspiracy was already in place, why would they bother to bring Biden in on it? He cannot strengthen any further-he would only become a liability. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/52 "2012-05-22T14:50:01Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Everyone so far seems to assume Obama would have to be removed from office. I would hope that, in order to avoid a constitutional crisis, Obama would step down and Biden would become president. It would be very strange for Obama to fight it, if it were really, 100% certain. He could avoid the whole mess by just stepping down. Easy peasy. Agreed. Most likely outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/53 "2012-05-22T15:42:21Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Everyone so far seems to assume Obama would have to be removed from office. I would hope that, in order to avoid a constitutional crisis, Obama would step down and Biden would become president. It would be very strange for Obama to fight it, if it were really, 100% certain. He could avoid the whole mess by just stepping down. Easy peasy. Sure, but if the assumption is that he is _not_ an NBC, then there is a corresponding assumption that he knows he isn’t, and hence isn’t too particular about whether he is eligible to be POTUS. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/54 "2012-05-22T16:30:46Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Precisely. > So, if the Constitution as written can be circumvented out of expediency and people be retro-actively made natural born citizens in one instance, then it can be in others when also expedient - such as “when the guy has been acting President for 4 years already”. > Can’t think of a better reason to give anyone honorary citizenship-with-all-the-trimmings, really 😉 ; and averting the confusion and chaos inherent in trying to retcon his presidency seems eminently expedient to me. > > ETA: that was a reply to **2sense** , naturally. Right. Another way out of the crisis is for Congress to pass a law that defines “Natural Born Citizen” in such a way that Obama is defined as one. Like, “Anyone who is an American citizen is a Natural Born Citizen”. Then Obama continues as president. Or, we could pass a quick Consitutional Amendment to remove the “Natural Born” requirement, and make it retroactive. A still other way out of the crisis is for congress and the Supreme Court to simply ignore the issue, and continue to act as if Obama is eligible to serve as President. If, say, some members of Congress try to impeach him on grounds of ineligibility, the impeachment could be voted down. When various people sue, the lower courts rule against them and the Supreme Court upholds, or refues to grant cert. If the voters don’t revolt, then what? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/55 "2012-05-22T16:37:01Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Precisely. > So, if the Constitution as written can be circumvented out of expediency and people be retro-actively made natural born citizens in one instance, then it can be in others when also expedient - such as “when the guy has been acting President for 4 years already”. It wasn’t circumvented. > [@](#): > > No Person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; neither shall any Person be eligible to that Office who shall not have attained to the Age of thirty five Years, and been fourteen Years a Resident within the United States. The Constitution explicitly extended eligibility to those who were grandfathered in. They didn’t just assume those people could be president. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/56 "2012-05-22T16:56:05Z")
[QUOTE=RNATB] It wasn’t circumvented. […] [/QUOTE] They certainly threw commas around in weird places back then, didn’t they ? Depending on how one chooses to parse the punctuation, this article might just as well be taken to mean that there’s no meaningful difference between “natural born citizens” and plain old “citizen”, or even that no one can be president who wasn’t around at the time the Constitution was adopted (“after me, the Flood !”) :p. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/57 "2012-05-22T16:58:37Z")
Well, yes, but one of the basic rules of statutory construction is that you read laws in a way that makes sense. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/58 "2012-05-22T17:05:44Z")
Well that’s just oppressive :mad:. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/59 "2012-05-22T17:06:16Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Brian Eckers** : > > Well, I’m assuming for the sake of the hypothetical that regardless of the exact formula, he is found to have been ineligible. Heck, assume it turns out that he was only 34 years old when elected, if it matters. That hypothetical, I think, is even weirder, because that’s an eligibility condition one can gain. Given how long it took for the proof in the OP’s example, the hypothetical president would have been ineligible at the time of assuming the office, but eligible at the time the proof came to light. On the question of retroactively declaring all laws he signed void, there is actually precedent, of a sort, against that. One of the arguments used by tax deniers is that at the time of the ratification of the amendment allowing income taxes, there was some bit of paperwork concerning Ohio’s statehood that didn’t have all of its Is dotted and Ts crossed, and that the amendment was therefore never really ratified, and that there is therefore no real income tax. This argument is taken by the courts with about as much seriousness as one would expect. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544/60 "2012-05-22T17:09:01Z")
> [@](#): > > Well that’s just oppressive. It’s more of a guideline, really. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-birthers-turned-out-to-be-right-about-obama/622544.md?page=4)