# What would happen if the soldiers simply decided not to fight? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 9, 2003, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-soldiers-simply-decided-not-to-fight/160043 "2003-03-09T05:58:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-soldiers-simply-decided-not-to-fight/160043/21 "2003-03-09T17:20:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \* > \*\*That was BS even back in the 1960s. \*\* That’s exactly what I thought when I saw the thread title… “So, you see, if we all just took off all of our clothes, there wouldn’t be any more wars!” ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-soldiers-simply-decided-not-to-fight/160043/22 "2003-03-09T17:25:58Z")
Of course, this scenario IS plausible…if you switch the word “Iraq” for “USA” and “Saddam Hussein” for “Dubya” in the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Neroli](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a4c791/32.png) [@Neroli](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neroli)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-soldiers-simply-decided-not-to-fight/160043/23 "2003-03-09T17:52:22Z")
Do you really want to live in a democratic country in which the military is unresponsive to the control of the government? Sounds like a recipe for military dictatorship to me. Now, what if all the admissions officers at universities would simply refuse to engage in affirmative action, and those in the government responsible for disbursing money to only those schools in compliance simply refused to stop disbursing it because they opposed affirmative action on the grounds that it is freaking morally wrong?----- Now there’s some “activism” I could maybe get behind. Or what if local fire departments ignored silly-assed activist judges and insisted on going back to tests that insured the most capable firefighters were hired, rather than those designed so that almost anyone who can read or write can pass, thus allowing the hiring of a certain number of blacks–which could never have been justified under a merit-based system? All I am saying, is give merit a chance. All I am saying, is kick Saddam in the pants. All I am saying, is the peace marchers are daft. ---
**Author:** ![habs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ecae2f/32.png) [@habs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/habs)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-soldiers-simply-decided-not-to-fight/160043/24 "2003-03-09T18:53:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > **Of course, the U.S.'s military leadership hasn’t suffered a recent coup** Nixon, in the last days of his presidency, strongly considered surrounding the White House with armed forces in order to keep himself in power, despite his impending impeachment. I’m not sure if this fits the classic definition of a coup, but it’s still rather disturbing that a president would actually consider doing this… Here’s an excerpt from [the article that describes this situation](http://www.viewfromthewall.com/30cfrnixon.htm): > [@](#): > > \*\*Then in October, came the rumor that Nixon may be considering a military coup to stay in office. Gen. Alexander Haig told the Congress during his confirmation hearings for the position of Secretary of State on January 1981, that some people in Washington were “flirting with solutions which would have been extra-Constitutional.” Watergate Special Prosecutor Leon Jaworski warned the grand jury, that if they decided to indict Nixon, he may use force to remain in office. In June, 1982, Harold Evans, Watergate grand juror, appearing on a segment of the ABC-TV news show “20/20”, said that Jaworski told them, that if they indicted Nixon, he might “surround the White House with armed forces.” > > On October 26, 1973, in a Washington Star article called “Has President Nixon Gone Crazy?” syndicated columnist Carl Rowan wrote, that "in the face of a vote to impeach he might try, as “commander-in-chief, " to use military forces to keep himself in power.” In another article called “The Pardon,” in the August, 1983 edition of the Atlantic Monthly, Seymour Hersh, one of Nixon’s Joint Chiefs of Staff, wrote that in a December 22, 1973 meeting: “He kept on referring to the fact that he may be the last hope, (that) the eastern elite was out to get him. He kept saying, ‘This is our last and best hope. The last chance to resist the fascists’ (of the left). His words brought me straight up out of my chair. I felt the President, without the words having been said, was trying to sound us out to see if we would support him in some extra-constitutional action.” He continued: “(Secretary of Defense James) Schlesinger began to investigate what forces could be assembled at his order as a counterweight to the Marines, if Nixon- in a crisis- chose to subvert the Constitution. The notion that Nixon could at any time resort to extraordinary steps to preserve his presidency was far more widespread in the government than the public perceived…” He felt it would be led by General Robert Cushman, the Marine Representative on the Joint Chiefs of Staff, who had been loyal to Nixon ever since he had been his military aide while he was the Vice President under Eisenhower. Schlesinger, in July, 1974, believing the Washington contingent of Marines to be the probable force used in a coup attempt, began developing a strategy to bring in the Army’s 82nd Airborne Division from Fort Bragg, North Carolina. > > On August 2, 1974, Secretary of State Henry Kissinger admitted that General Haig had informed him that Nixon was considering the idea of surrounding the White House with troops. In a August 27, 1974. article in the Washington Post, called “Military Coup Fears Denied,” the fact was revealed: “Defense Secretary James Schlesinger requested a tight watch in the military chain of command to ensure that no extraordinary orders went out from the White House during the period of uncertainty (and) that no commanders of any forces should carry out orders which came from the White House, or elsewhere, outside the normal military channels.” > > The limited scope of any coup attempt would have prevented its success, and Pentagon officials knew that. Rather than a plot by the Illuminati to militarily take over the government, it seemed to be more of an attempt by Nixon to keep from getting pushed out of office by the powers that actually run this country. In the end, he knew what kind of power he was dealing with, and resigned his office on August 9th, rather than risk what remaining credibility he had, by trying to grab what he could not hold.\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-soldiers-simply-decided-not-to-fight/160043/25 "2003-03-09T19:08:22Z")
Here’s a realistic scenario of what would happen: If the U.S. suddenly spontaneously disarmed itself, China would attack Taiwan. North Korea would begin a rapid buildup of nuclear weapons preparatory to invading South Korea. Kuwait would be overthrown by Iraq. A new arms race in the middle east would occur as governments realized that the stability imposed by the implicit threat of U.S action was gone. Small, poorly defended but wealthy middle eastern countries like Bahrain and Qatar would be swallowed up overnight. In the meantime, such a visible failure of American will would raise Hussein and al-Qaida’s stature tremendously. Recruitment for al-Qaida would skyrocket. Without the fear of U.S. reprisal, hostile countries would greatly step up their association with terrorist groups. In essence, groups like al-Qaida would become the special forces of rogue states. They would be incredibly well funded, supplied with weapons of terror, and sent into the west to destroy as much as they could. We live under a _Pax Americana_. World stability is very much dependent on the implicit threat of American force if states step out of line. When that threat is absent, as it regrettably has been in Africa, the result is instability, civil war, and genocide. In short, if American troops laid down their arms, it would be an immense tragedy for the world. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-soldiers-simply-decided-not-to-fight/160043/26 "2003-03-09T19:44:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Airman Doors, USAF \* > \*\*Whoa. > > He’s allowed to have an opinion, **december**. … > Let’s not blow things out of proportion here. \*\* You’re talkin’ to the wrong guy. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2003, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-soldiers-simply-decided-not-to-fight/160043/27 "2003-03-09T22:03:07Z")
US troops won’t quit except in a few isolated cases. But, in just about [every war](http://www.simonides.org/links/topics/individual/mutiny.html) there is some desertion. In WWI there was a lot. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2003, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-soldiers-simply-decided-not-to-fight/160043/28 "2003-03-10T15:05:50Z")
Let’s try a different take on this scenario. It’s 1962, and Jim Crow still reigns in the South. A school district in Mississippi has been order to accept black students, but refuses. President Kennedy orders troops to enforce integration. But just as they’re about to head out, all the white soldiers lay down their arms and refuse to go. - Moral: think long and hard before you endorse the idea of soldiers picking and choosing which orders they want to follow. It’s by no means certain that soldiers who ignore orders and follow their own wishes will act the way YOU want them to. ---
**Author:** ![BeatenMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ab097/32.png) [@BeatenMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BeatenMan)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-soldiers-simply-decided-not-to-fight/160043/29 "2003-03-11T00:03:22Z")
What would happen if the soldiers simply decided not to fight? This will happen on Iraqs side. They will not fight for saddam. They know Saddam is history and he can’t win. I saw a taping of Saddam and his generals, they looked horrified of him the kind of look you have when you dealing with someone who wants to kill you. Once Americans cross the border into Iraq it will be over. They will turn on him. Saddam uses fear because he is not a good leader. I think most people will be surprised how quick they turn on him. ---
**Author:** ![Lostboy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Lostboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lostboy)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-soldiers-simply-decided-not-to-fight/160043/30 "2003-03-11T00:27:09Z")
Many Iraqi soldiers will surrender very quickly-some [have tried already](http://www.suntimes.com/output/iraq/cst-nws-surrender10.html) Saddam does have troops that are loyal to him,especially the Rebublican guard, who will be a bit harder to defeat though. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-soldiers-simply-decided-not-to-fight/160043/31 "2003-03-11T00:47:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by UnuMondo \* > \*\*Right, just like Costa Rica was swallowed up by its land-hungry neighbors after it abolished its army. Oh, wait, that didn’t happen? Well, I guess it goes against your silly argument. > > UnuMondo \*\* I happen to know that Costa Rica is protected from an invasion by Nicargua by the best & most powerful military force in the world- the USA. They aren’t idiots, they know the USA would come in and save them. Besides, their “paramilitary” forces could put up a fight- their Police (last I knew) weren’t all “flatfoots with rusty .38’s.” :rolleyes: As Sam put it “pax Americana”. Why do you think the Pakistanis & Indians haven’t gone to war again-with Nukes? Or North Korea invading the South? Or China grabbing Taiwan? Ya think they are afraid of (gasp, choke) UN sanctions? Or- worse yet- the dreaded “Peacekeeping forces”? :rolleyes: Do you really think a thousand Irish & Canadianswith sidearms & armbands are scaring any of these nations? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![ElJeffe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@ElJeffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElJeffe)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2003, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-soldiers-simply-decided-not-to-fight/160043/32 "2003-03-11T01:23:36Z")
I have nothing terribly useful to add, I just wanted to comment that when I read the OP, I imagined a bunch of college kids passing around the bong and engaging in “deep discussions.” “Dude, what if, like, tomorrow, you woke up, and, like, everything fell _up_?” 😃 Okay, carry on. Jeff [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-soldiers-simply-decided-not-to-fight/160043.md?page=1)