# What would happen if the US started withdrawing support from Israel? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 28, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134 "2010-03-28T19:37:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/61 "2010-03-31T16:31:07Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > Because it is just a distraction from the real issue: is Israel practicing, or heading toward, a form of apartheid? Instead of addressing that issue, Carter’s critics are attacking him personally either for being “antisemitic” (and I understand that you are not doing this but others are) or for being some sort of kooky religious nut. Neither of those attacks does anything to address Carter’s criticism. > > And since you bring up fallacies, these are just _ad hominem_ attacks. 🙂 The real issue is whether Israel’s policies are justified in the situation, not whether they measure up to some emotive word or other. Alleging that a person has demonstrated a bias, and thus that their opinions are not objective, is not a fallacious use of the _ad hom_. Of course such an observation cannot _prove_ that their arguments are wrong, but it is nevertheless a fully valid critique. See > **[Ad hominem](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem)** > > Ad hominem (Latin for 'to the person'), short for argumentum ad hominem, refers to several types of arguments where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than the substance of the argument itself. This avoids genuine debate by creating a diversion often using a totally irrelevant, but often highly charged attribute of the opponent's character or background. The most common form of this fallacy is "A" makes a claim of "fact",... The use by Carter’s critics of the “anti-semitism” label is incorrect for exactly the same reason that the use by Carter’s supporters of the term “aparthied” is incorrect: it is a loaded, emotive term, that does not accurately express the real issues, and that is used exactly to obscure them with rhetoric. This does not mean that Carter should not be justly critiqued for his (quite evident) bias (or for that matter that Israel’s policies are above criticism). ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/62 "2010-03-31T16:47:01Z")
Well, [Carter himself has clarified his meaning on the use of the word “apartheid.”](http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Israel/CarterLetter_AmerJews.html) I won’t presume to speak for him on that topic. As for Carter being guided by his religious views, it doesn’t particularly bother me, as I get the sense that for Carter the guiding Christian precept is “Love thy neighbor as thyself.” That sort of thinking doesn’t worry me. We could use more of that. I do not see any “bias” as you allege. If anything, Biblical passages would cause him to be biased in _favor_ of Israel, not against it. ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/63 "2010-03-31T18:08:38Z")
> [@Lantern](#): > > . If Carter is an anti-Semite, I would be proud to call myself one too. What really ? Oooh what a surprise ! We’d never had guessed it. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/64 "2010-03-31T18:10:25Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > Well, [Carter himself has clarified his meaning on the use of the word “apartheid.”](http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Israel/CarterLetter_AmerJews.html) I won’t presume to speak for him on that topic. > > As for Carter being guided by his religious views, it doesn’t particularly bother me, as I get the sense that for Carter the guiding Christian precept is “Love thy neighbor as thyself.” That sort of thinking doesn’t worry me. We could use more of that. > > I do not see any “bias” as you allege. If anything, Biblical passages would cause him to be biased in _favor_ of Israel, not against it. It would not bother me either if Carter’s Christianity was expressed _only_ in such generalities as “love thy neighbour as thyself” (not, I point out, a _uniquely_ Christian sentiment - variants of the Golden Rule show up in pretty well every human culture). Berating a respected leader of another country for risking divine wrath for the crime of being excessively secular? That’s a _trifle_ more disturbing. Can you think of any other example of this? The notion that Biblical passages in the hands of Christian can _only_ support a bias in _favour_ of Israel is more than a bit historically naive, considering that large parts of the NT are devoted to blasting the “Israeli authorities” of their day as corrupt and evil - something Carter expressly references (in the first quote mentioned above). Given Carter’s tendancy to conflate the Israel of NT times with the Israel of Biblical times … ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/65 "2010-03-31T18:51:54Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > It would not bother me either if Carter’s Christianity was expressed _only_ in such generalities as “love thy neighbour as thyself” (not, I point out, a _uniquely_ Christian sentiment - variants of the Golden Rule show up in pretty well every human culture). I didn’t say it was unique. I said it is Carter’s guiding precept. Very obviously so. (See his work on Habitat for Humanity and his efforts toward eradication of the Guinea worm for example. Why do you suppose he is involving himself in the Palestinian question at all? I think it is because he feels the Golden Rule impels him. > [@](#): > > Berating a respected leader of another country for risking divine wrath for the crime of being excessively secular? That’s a _trifle_ more disturbing. Can you think of any other example of this? OK, so you find religious man Carter’s appeals to others to be more religious disturbing. So what? What does you being “disturbed” have to do with resolution of the Palestinian problem? This just looks like an _ad hominem_ attack on Carter to me – an attempt to portray him as a kook. > [@](#): > > The notion that Biblical passages in the hands of Christian can _only_ support a bias in _favour_ of Israel is more than a bit historically naive, considering that large parts of the NT are devoted to blasting the “Israeli authorities” of their day as corrupt and evil - something Carter expressly references (in the first quote mentioned above). “Corrupt and evil?” I think I must have missed that quote. I see him expressing Christian concern about the mistreatment of the Samaritans. Where does “evil and corrupt” enter into it. Looks more like an appeal to the Israeli conscience to me. But again, NONE of that really gets at the issues Carter raises in his book ([Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid](http://www.wikisummaries.org/Palestine:_Peace_Not_Apartheid)). Indeed, they seem like distractions from those issues. An attack on the messenger rather than the message. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/66 "2010-03-31T19:25:16Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > I didn’t say it was unique. I said it is Carter’s guiding precept. Very obviously so. (See his work on Habitat for Humanity and his efforts toward eradication of the Guinea worm for example. Why do you suppose he is involving himself in the Palestinian question at all? I think it is because he feels the Golden Rule impels him. I have no idea why. I suspect that a desire to secure his own legacy is a more compelling concern in this area than the “golden rule”, but that is mere speculation. > [@](#): > > OK, so you find religious man Carter’s appeals to others to be more religious disturbing. So what? What does you being “disturbed” have to do with resolution of the Palestinian problem? This just looks like an _ad hominem_ attack on Carter to me – an attempt to portray him as a kook. It isn’t a mere appeal to be more religious, it’s a statement that the _historical lessons he’s learned_ indicate that _Israel will bring down the wrath of God_ for not being religious. Doesn’t taht raise in your mind even the slightest question as to what _other_ “historical lessons” he may have gleaned from his Bible teachings? How does this relate to his analysis of the situation? It indicates he’s viewing it through a Biblical lens, specifically a _Christian_ Biblical lens. The Christian view of (biblical) Israel is _not_ necessarily a positive one. Pointing out that the man apparently has a religious predisposition to think the worst of his subject is, as pointed out, not a _fallacious_ ad-hom, but a quite legitimate bias concern. Whether this makes him a “kook” is neither here nor there. > [@](#): > > “Corrupt and evil?” I think I must have missed that quote. I see him expressing Christian concern about the mistreatment of the Samaritans. Where does “evil and corrupt” enter into it. Looks more like an appeal to the Israeli conscience to me. It’s an appeal to the parallel between the modern nation of Israel and the “Israeli authorities” that existed at the time of Jesus. If you have read your NT recently, you would know that this does not have _positive_ implications: the NT is replete with examples of the hypocrasy, corruption and evils of the “Israeli authorities” at that time. The NT account of the evils of the “Israeli authorities” at the time of the life of Christ has, for centuries, been used to justify Christian repression of Jews generally, a fact that would not be lost on those familiar with the religions and histories involved. > **[Antisemitism and the New Testament](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism_in_the_New_Testament)** > > Antisemitism and the New Testament is the discussion of how some Christians' views of Judaism in the New Testament have contributed to discrimination against Jewish people throughout history and in the present day. > The idea that the New Testament is antisemitic is a controversy that has emerged in the aftermath of the Holocaust and is often associated with a thesis put forward by Rosemary Ruether. Debates surrounding various positions partly revolve around how antisemitism is defined, and on sch... > [@](#): > > But again, NONE of that really gets at the issues Carter raises in his book ([Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid](http://www.wikisummaries.org/Palestine:_Peace_Not_Apartheid)). Indeed, they seem like distractions from those issues. An attack on the messenger rather than the message. The issue was raised concerning Carter’s alleged anti-semitism, and the relationship between Christian belief and Zionism (see “Chistian Zionism”). My point was to demonstrate that Christian belief does not invariably lead to Zionism - the exact same set of beliefs can lead to its opposite, a religious conviction that condemns the “Israeli authorities”. Christian Zionists look more to OT prophecy and millenialism to support their beliefs (which is also why many Jews are wary of _them_ - after all, the whole point is that Jews have to have a state so they can _convert en mass_ when the messiah returns!). Carter looks to the OT as well (in paraphrase, ‘history teaches that Israel attacts God’s wrath by being secular’), but is seemingly more motivated by a NT view of the “Israeli authorities” - not a positive one. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/67 "2010-03-31T19:28:40Z")
First, to the OP: the biggest effects would be in America’s defense industries (where Israel spends a huge chunk of its aid), Israel’s economy would take a certain degree of damage and, perhaps most importantly, we’d lose leverage. As I’ve stated several times on the board in the past, the best approach is to threaten cessation of aid if specific metrics are not met. Call in all our markers without a specific timetable and set of demands first, and we’ve got nothing left that we can use to influence Israel other than Security Council votes, and I’m notsure that’d be enough. Now, on the tangent of Jimmy Carter’s views… Discussing the man’s character is not a distraction from the issue. Carter has long since been revealed to be a liar and a bigot, and as such noting his tendency to conflate ancient and modern Israel, as well the ease at which he crafts lies to prop up his claims, means that no factual claim he makes should be taken at face value and no logical conclusion he makes should go unexamined. Ad hom is not always a fallacy, especially when it goes to showing that someone cannot be trusted without verification. In general, if Carter tells you that the sky over Jerusalem is blue, make sure you check the weather report. Simply, and unambiguously, [Carter lies](http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1273) to [support a partisan agenda.](http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=3&x_outlet=14&x_article=1252) That there are, of course, some who will erroneously claim there is an “Israel Can Do No Wrong!” faction is not particularly worthy of analysis, but that many of the same people support Carter, despite his proven track record of lying to shill for an agenda and bigotry against a nation, to the point where he will simply make shit up to support an Israel Can Do No Right narrative, well… That Carter still has support on this issue is elucidative in and of itself, because when Carter gets lying he’s given to some real whoppers. In his quest to deminize Israel, for example, he claimed that during a time period of a few years Israel was unremittingly hostile to the Palestinians and was using Hamas as an excuse while, naturally, Hamas hadn’t even attacked Israel once during that period! Of course, _Hamas itself had proudly taken credit for several attacks_, but facts tend to get in the way of Carter’s agenda. Now, if folks really want to discuss Carter’s mendacity or why his lies, invariably and predictably, end up supporting a narrative that Israel doesn’t want peace and the Palestinian leadership is only ever interested in peace, a separate thread would probably be called for. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/68 "2010-03-31T19:40:59Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Christian Zionists look more to OT prophecy and millenialism to support their beliefs (which is also why many Jews are wary of _them_ - after all, the whole point is that Jews have to have a state so they can _convert en mass_ when the messiah returns!). I think you are overthinking their motivations. Most of the Christians I know aren’t really focused on end-time prophecies. Indeed, most just ignore the book of Revelations as much as possible. The typical motivation you hear for supporting Israel is the whole “God’s chosen people” thing and also God’s injunction in Genesis chapter 12: > [@](#): > > 1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee: > > ``` > 2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: > > 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed. > > ``` In fact, the same church I mentioned that flies the Isaeli flag also used to have a sign out front that read “Why do we fly the Israeli flag? Read Gen 12:3” ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/69 "2010-03-31T19:49:54Z")
And **Finn** , you are doing your side of the discussion no favors with a “Carter is a lying bigot!” approach. Particularly when you link to sites that essentially quibble over details and then you use those quibbles as a launching pad for a “CARTER LIES!” tirade. I think my favorite silly quibble is: _Gaza is not surrounded by a wall, it’s surrounded by a **fence** _! Wow. _Touche!_ That Carter really _is_ a lying bigot! ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/70 "2010-03-31T20:00:00Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > I think you are overthinking their motivations. Most of the Christians I know aren’t really focused on end-time prophecies. Indeed, most just ignore the book of Revelations as much as possible. > > The typical motivation you hear for supporting Israel is the whole “God’s chosen people” thing and also God’s injunction in Genesis chapter 12: > > In fact, the same church I mentioned that flies the Isaeli flag also used to have a sign out front that read “Why do we fly the Israeli flag? Read Gen 12:3” Christian _Zionists_ specifically have more than one motive, but there is a very strong element of belief in Biblical prophecy. Note the wiki article above which, while Wiki is not of course an unimpeachable source, is not inaccurate when it states as follows: > [@](#): > > Christian Zionism is a belief among some Christians that the return of the Jews to the Holy Land, and the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948, is in accordance with Biblical prophecy. It overlaps with, but is distinct from, the nineteenth century movement for the Restoration of the Jews to the Holy Land, which had both religiously and politically motivated supporters. The term Christian Zionism was popularized in the mid-twentieth century. Prior to that time the common term was Restorationism.[citation needed] > > Some Christian Zionists believe that the “ingathering” of Jews in Israel is a prerequisite for the Second Coming of Jesus. This belief is primarily, though not exclusively, associated with Christian Dispensationalism. The idea that Christians should actively support a Jewish return to the Land of Israel, along with the parallel idea that the Jews ought to be encouraged to become Christian, as a means fulfilling a Biblical prophecy has been common in Protestant circles since the Reformation.[1][2][3]. > > Many Christian Zionists believe that the people of Israel remain part of the chosen people of God, see also Dual-covenant theology, along with the ingrafted (based on Romans 11:17-24, Holy Bible) Gentile Christians. This has the added effect of turning Christian Zionists into supporters of Jewish Zionism. What you are referring to is the _last_ element, the so-called “dual covenant theology”. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/71 "2010-03-31T20:20:44Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > What you are referring to is the _last_ element, the so-called “dual covenant theology”. What I am referring to is the way most Christians actually approach Israel. Those who are courting the end times are, I assure you, a tiny fraction. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/72 "2010-03-31T20:21:08Z")
Anybody reading along who’s curious about the facts should be sure to check the cite I’ve provided and see if spoke’s gloss is an accurate and reliable analysis of its claims. > [@](#): > > Carter is a lying bigot 1. He can objectively and without question be shown to be lying about major, important, easily verified facts. Claiming that such things are “quibbles” is not a rebuttal, it is a handwave. 2. By relying on lies to sell his agenda and demonize Israel, Carter has demonstrated that he is [a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bigot) when it comes to the conduct of Israeli and Palestinian factions. > [@](#): > > quibble over details We’ve been through this before. Readers should take note of what Carter’s actual lies were, and why spoke’s handwaving major lies away as “quibbles” is an invalid track to take an argument down. I’d think that most readers will not be much swayed from an accurate appraisal of Carter’s well proven habit of lying to support his agenda by calling his lies “quibbles”. Lies like Israel hadn’t removed its forces from Lebanon when it had, lies like Hamas hadn’t attacked Israel and Israel was simply warmongering for no reason when Hamas had taken credit for dozens of Israeli deaths, lies about what treaties and negotiations said that supported Carter’s lies that Israel was in violation of them, etc, etc, etc… And, again, readers [will find several of Carter’s lies about the security barrier’s route, its size, its purpose, its effect](http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=118&x_article=1273) (and so on), but no point rests solely on the fact that in the context of such lies, Carter may possibly have also deliberately used inaccurate terminology in order to use a connotation to provoke emotional reactions. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/73 "2010-03-31T20:23:55Z")
OK, so Carter’s motivation is that he’s a lying bigot. How many believe that’s what moves Carter? Show of hands? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/74 "2010-03-31T20:36:35Z")
Can you, or can you not, refute the fact that Carter has a habit of making massive, obvious, verifiable “factual errors”, repeatedly, and they all, invariably and without deviation, support his narrative that Israel is totally unwilling to reach peace and is a warmongering aggressor? Whether or not he’s a liar, and whether or not that shows if he’s a bigot, will logically flow from whether or not I am correct and he deliberately uses falsehoods to sell his narrative. Will you or will you not engage with the facts? I’ll also note your strawman, as any number of factors might be responsible for Carter’s habit of lying and his bigotry. It’s not necessarily what moves him, but unless you’re able to refute the facts provided, then rather clearly Carter is both a serial liar and someone who rejects any facts and accepts any fictions which challenge or support his false-to-facts narrative, respectively. Got any refutations there, spoke? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/75 "2010-03-31T20:45:52Z")
> [@spoke-](#): > > What I am referring to is the way most Christians actually approach Israel. Those who are courting the end times are, I assure you, a tiny fraction. I am not talking about “most Christians”, but specifically about that _subset_ of Christians that embrace Zionism for religious reasons. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/76 "2010-03-31T21:16:45Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Calling Israel an apartheid state is not anti-Semitic, it is a considered criticism of Israel’s actions, one that you disagree with. Antisemitism is ethnic hatred directed exclusively at Jews. Jewishness and Israeliness are not equal, and Israel, even though it has a very large percentage of its population as Jews is not entitled to a get out of jail free card because its supports are so quick to hide behind past atrocities towards Jews. > > Carter’s criticism of Israel as engaging in apartheid is a friend speaking the truth. Carter has done more for Israel in the US than any other American, and he did it out of conviction and principle, which is more than can be said for most politicians. Whether Israel is an apartheid state is not a matter of opinion. Factually, it is not. 25% of her population is Arab. Arabs have all the rights of Jews in Israel. A friend would not use inflammatory langauge regarding another friend, language that all the world can see. I understand, of course, that such language sells books, but Carter doesn’t need to sell books. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/77 "2010-03-31T21:39:02Z")
Come on, **Finn** , quit hiding behind “bigot” and just call Jimmy Carter an anti-semite. You know you want to. (Gee no one around here stoops to accusing critics of Israel of being anti-semites. No, that _never_ happens.) And no, I will not join you in one of your beloved post-parsing quibble-fests. Thanks for the invitation, though. I am content that most folks with a shred of sanity recognize Carter’s efforts at peacemaking for what they are: efforts at peacemaking.\* Blessed are the peacemakers\* and all that. One more example of Carter trying to live his faith. But keep on ranting about Carter the bigot. I’m sure you are convincing a lot of people. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/78 "2010-03-31T22:10:08Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Ehud Barak, [Israel](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/israel)’s defence minister, last night delivered an unusually blunt warning to his country that a failure to make peace with the Palestinians would leave either a state with no Jewish majority or an “apartheid” regime. > His stark language and the South African analogy might have been unthinkable for a senior Israeli figure only a few years ago and is a rare admission of the gravity of the deadlocked peace process. > “As long as in this territory west of the Jordan river there is only one political entity called Israel it is going to be either non-Jewish, or non-democratic,” Barak said. “If this bloc of millions of Palestinians cannot vote, that will be an apartheid state.” > [Barak: make peace with Palestinians or face apartheid | Israel | The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/feb/03/barak-apartheid-palestine-peace) > > Four decades later, the increasingly complex world of Israel’s system of classification deems Said Rhateb to be a resident of the West Bank - somewhere he has never lived - and an illegal alien for living in the home in which he was born, inside the Jerusalem boundary. Jerusalem’s council forces Rhateb to pay substantial property taxes on his house but that does not give him the right to live in it, and he is periodically arrested for doing so. Rhateb’s children have been thrown out of their Jerusalem school, he cannot register a car in his name - or rather he can, but only one with Palestinian number plates, which means he cannot drive it to his home because only Israeli-registered cars are allowed within Jerusalem - and he needs a pass to visit the centre of the city. The army grants him about four a year. > There is more. If Rhateb is not legally resident in his own home, then he is defined as an “absentee” who has abandoned his property. Under Israeli law, it now belongs to the state or, more particularly, its Jewish citizens. “They sent papers that said we cannot sell the land or develop it because we do not own the land. It belongs to the state,” he says. “Any time they want to confiscate it, they can, because they say we are absentees even though we are living in the house.”… > An Israeli human rights organisation has described segregation of West Bank roads by the military as apartheid. Arab Israeli lawyers argue anti-discrimination cases before the supreme court by drawing out similarities between some Israeli legislation and white South Africa’s oppressive laws. Desmond Tutu, the former archbishop of Cape Town and chairman of South Africa’s truth and reconciliation commission, visited the occupied territories three years ago and described what he found as “much like what happened to us black people in South Africa”. > > [Worlds apart | Israel | The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/feb/06/southafrica.israel) The Guardian has always been anti-Israel in its slant. See [http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/Guardian\_Promotes\_Apartheid\_Slur.asp](http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/Guardian_Promotes_Apartheid_Slur.asp) [http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/new/Not\_the\_White\_Response.asp](http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/new/Not_the_White_Response.asp) ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/79 "2010-03-31T22:37:52Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > The Guardian has always been anti-Israel in its slant. See [http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/Guardian\_Promotes\_Apartheid\_Slur.asp](http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/Guardian_Promotes_Apartheid_Slur.asp) > > [http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/new/Not\_the\_White\_Response.asp](http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/new/Not_the_White_Response.asp) So you’re using some pro-Israel site to critique the Guardian? How about the unambiguous facts in the little bit I quoted? Are they made up? Your pro-Israel site doesn’t question a single fact in the Guardian article, it just tries to smear the guy who wrote it and some of the people quoted in the story. Get back to me if there’s anything factual in that article that yyou can question. Then how about the article in the Israeli newspaper I quoted? Is that Israeli newspaper anti-Israel too? How about the Israeli human rights group quoted in the Guardian? Anti-Israel? What about Desmond Tutu? An antisemite? How about the Israeli defense minister I quoted? Is he anti-Israeli too? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2010, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134/80 "2010-03-31T22:39:53Z")
Just to remind you spoke: > [@](#): > > Can you, or can you not, refute the fact that Carter has a habit of making massive, obvious, verifiable “factual errors”, repeatedly, and they all, invariably and without deviation, support his narrative that Israel is totally unwilling to reach peace and is a warmongering aggressor? > Whether or not he’s a liar, and whether or not that shows if he’s a bigot, will logically flow from whether or not I am correct and he deliberately uses falsehoods to sell his narrative. > Will you or will you not engage with the facts? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/what-would-happen-if-the-us-started-withdrawing-support-from-israel/534134.md?page=5)